[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Green Cross Code Man]

Meaningless though because Russia can and always has been able to afford off enormous losses comparably because a) their vastness b) total repression of anyone daring to question. As has always been the case for centuries. There’s a reason Russia lost more than any other nation except China during WW2 and it’s not all down to German barbarism. Much can be attributed to Stalin, whose callous strategies and tactics cost millions of soviet lives. 1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic and all that.

It's not meaningless as it means forced conscription is more likely if this war continues much longer. It also means their ability to threaten other nearby nations is severely lessened as they lack battle ready troops. Conscription will start to make more waves back home.

 

[Cotton Socks]

Granted, poorly worded. What I’m saying is that the barbaric behaviour of the Russian army comes from the very top. Win at all costs. The enemy are animals etc. That heavily entrenched indoctrination has surely had some influence in these cases. And of course I knew the difference between right and wrong at 21. I’m not apologising for these actions. These individuals should be locked up for decades. But is it coincidence the quoted actions are from a 21 year-old and a 19 year-old? The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.


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It has nothing to do with the 'rules of war'. There is no justification whatsoever of raping women and killing unarmed civilians. If you were ordered to rape someone would you be able to actually manage penetration unless you really wanted to do it? I don't know you but I suspect you wouldn't want to, or be able to. I suspect you would probably 'accidentally miss' when ordered to kill an unarmed civilian.
This probably happens in all wars but there's no justification for it and there's no saying 'he's too young to understand'. I said myself early in this thread that a lot of their army are conscripts who are not there by choice. They do have a choice as to rape or kill unarmed civilians though.

 

[Eric the meek]

'Monumental Nato decision by Sweden's ruling party'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61441664 16:44

Putin's arrogance and sense of entitlement in attempting to wield a non-existent veto on nations joining Nato, (thereby containing Nato 'expansion' as he sees it), continues to backfire.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Well deserved :

[Tweet]1525882028759080967[/Tweet]

 

[jakarta]

Meaningless though because Russia can and always has been able to afford off enormous losses comparably because a) their vastness b) total repression of anyone daring to question. As has always been the case for centuries. There’s a reason Russia lost more than any other nation except China during WW2 and it’s not all down to German barbarism. Much can be attributed to Stalin, whose callous strategies and tactics cost millions of soviet lives. 1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic and all that.

Yes but they have an aging and declining population, while I would agree with your second point it is now arguable that they are not that Vast anymore and cannot just throw bodies at the opposition, especially when the opposition is clearly better organised and led. Still a Nuclear Power of Course but that is Game Over.

I wouldn't want to be in a Russian APV or Tank at present, that is for certain!

 

[portlock seagull]

It's not meaningless as it means forced conscription is more likely if this war continues much longer. It also means their ability to threaten other nearby nations is severely lessened as they lack battle ready troops. Conscription will start to make more waves back home.

In terms of the capacity to absorb losses I meant. Russia has infinite in that sense due to the low value they place on lives and materials lost and absence of any domestic opposition to absolute rule since Vlad was a lad

 

[portlock seagull]

Yes but they have an aging and declining population, while I would agree with your second point it is now arguable that they are not that Vast anymore and cannot just throw bodies at the opposition, especially when the opposition is clearly better organised and led. Still a Nuclear Power of Course but that is Game Over.

I wouldn't want to be in a Russian APV or Tank at present, that is for certain!

Funnily enough my tank expert mate and I were chatting about this last night after many beers might add, and whether tanks are now a bit like Battleships during WW2? Is their time up in warfare terms? A bit like the conventional war has been replaced by never ending guerrilla insurgent type warfare which can defeat those with far greater hardware resources.

 

[Icy Gull]

In terms of the capacity to absorb losses I meant. Russia has infinite due to the low value they place on lives and materials lost and absence of any domestic opposition to absolute rule since Vlad was a lad

Conscripts will be no match for battle hardened veteran Ukrainians with Western weapons give that Russian elite forces have been shown up to be ineffective in the extreme.

 

[jakarta]

Conscripts will be no match for battle hardened veteran Ukrainians with Western weapons give that Russian elite forces have been shown up to be ineffective in the extreme.

Well when you say 'Elite'...

Yes it isn't funny & I shouldn't laugh. But what a cluster**** the Russians have made of this. I'll bet the Pentagon are wetting themselves.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Well when you say 'Elite'...[emoji38]ol:

Yes it isn't funny & I shouldn't laugh. But what a cluster**** the Russians have made of this. I'll bet the Pentagon are wetting themselves.

I recommend this author a lot. This is a thread he wrote on Feb 27th :

[Tweet]1497993363076915204[/Tweet]

 

[Eric the meek]

Well when you say 'Elite'...

Yes it isn't funny & I shouldn't laugh. But what a cluster**** the Russians have made of this. I'll bet the Pentagon are wetting themselves.

The Russians themselves have done a better job than the Pentagon could ever have done. Nato strengthened, the whole of the western world united against Russia, many Russian 'diplomats' expelled from European capitals, the Russian economy crippled, the sheer unprofessionalism and ineffectiveness of the Russian military showcased for all the world, especially Russia's long suffering neighbours, to see. The list goes on and on.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

In terms of the capacity to absorb losses I meant. Russia has infinite in that sense due to the low value they place on lives and materials lost and absence of any domestic opposition to absolute rule since Vlad was a lad

That's right, I agree. It's weird how far the Russians are from mainstream western Europe in terms of historic development regarding human rights. Reading up about Russia recently, it's striking how backward and uncivilized their attitudes are.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I recommend this author a lot. This is a thread he wrote on Feb 27th :

[Tweet]1497993363076915204[/Tweet]

A second recommendation for the author. Fascinating insights into the Russian psyche and their history.

 

[dangull]

Yes but they have an aging and declining population, while I would agree with your second point it is now arguable that they are not that Vast anymore and cannot just throw bodies at the opposition, especially when the opposition is clearly better organised and led. Still a Nuclear Power of Course but that is Game Over.

I wouldn't want to be in a Russian APV or Tank at present, that is for certain!

Russia is a vast nation, but the population is only about the same as Germany and the UK combined 145 million

 

[portlock seagull]

Conscripts will be no match for battle hardened veteran Ukrainians with Western weapons give that Russian elite forces have been shown up to be ineffective in the extreme.

It’s more inexperienced people without a dog in the fight that will make the difference more than anything.

 

[ShandyH]

It has nothing to do with the 'rules of war'. There is no justification whatsoever of raping women and killing unarmed civilians. If you were ordered to rape someone would you be able to actually manage penetration unless you really wanted to do it? I don't know you but I suspect you wouldn't want to, or be able to. I suspect you would probably 'accidentally miss' when ordered to kill an unarmed civilian.
This probably happens in all wars but there's no justification for it and there's no saying 'he's too young to understand'. I said myself early in this thread that a lot of their army are conscripts who are not there by choice. They do have a choice as to rape or kill unarmed civilians though.

Of course people make their own choices and of course there is no justification for their behaviour. If you think I’m apologising for it, you’re much maligned. But if you’re trying to tell me this isn’t utterly endemic and proliferated throughout the Russian “army,” you’re removing the context entirely. I’m not saying the context in any way explains their actions but Russia is run by a thug. He’s completely disregarded all rules of war and had repeatedly violated international law. That disseminates. Law is gone. Morals disappear. The worst behaviours of humankind are then deemed part of the terms of war; terms entirely of their own devising.

There are no reprisals for these horrendous actions in Russia. There are internationally defined rules of war and Russia defies them all, repeatedly. This psychopathic disregard for human life is part of the Russian army. People now have iPhones to prove it.


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[Eric the meek]

Of course people make their own choices and of course there is no justification for their behaviour. If you think I’m apologising for it, you’re much maligned. But if you’re trying to tell me this isn’t utterly endemic and proliferated throughout the Russian “army,” you’re removing the context entirely. I’m not saying the context in any way explains their actions but Russia is run by a thug. He’s completely disregarded all rules of war and had repeatedly violated international law. That disseminates. Law is gone. Morals disappear. The worst behaviours of humankind are then deemed part of the terms of war; terms entirely of their own devising.

There are no reprisals for these horrendous actions in Russia. There are internationally defined rules of war and Russia defies them all, repeatedly. This psychopathic disregard for human life is part of the Russian army. People now have iPhones to prove it.


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I would broadly agree with those points. But none of them exonerate the Russian soldier in the dock for war crimes.

Here is your initial comment once again:

'But the Russian soldier currently on trial is 21 years old. This murderous behaviour is not of his making. He has been emboldened by appalling misinformation, propaganda and a nationalistic fervour he’s not old enough to understand.'

Do you see what you are doing? You are pronouncing him not guilty. Before the trial. Before you know what he has been charged with. Before you have seen any evidence.

How do you know he's not old enough to understand? Have you studied his medical reports?

 

[A1X]

[tweet]1525935012222316545[/tweet]

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

[tweet]1525935012222316545[/tweet]

A hugely symbolic moment for the defenders of Ukraine

 

[Bry Nylon]

That's right, I agree. It's weird how far the Russians are from mainstream western Europe in terms of historic development regarding human rights. Reading up about Russia recently, it's striking how backward and uncivilized their attitudes are.

I saw some TV news footage of the Red Square 9th May parade. Thousands upon thousands of soldiers lined up and not a single non-white face (that I saw). I'm not saying for a moment that Western countries haven't got more to do and further to go in all manner of areas - but it was quite striking, nonetheless.