[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Bozza]

Sorry if already mentioned, but has there been much of a movement yet to stop shops selling Russian products yet? Vodka being the obvious one.
Surely bars and supermarkets should be switching to Polish suppliers?

Do we get many consumer products from Russia?

Smirnoff is a Diageo brand, so effectively British. Grey Goose is French and Absolut is Swedish.

I don't doubt there are some Russian vodkas available but any ban feels more like symbolism, rather than an effective financial sanction.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Mistakes of the past are not to recognise the conflicts you end up creating in the future. The Treaty of Versailles a document of supposed peace that led inevitably to another war failed so badly that Europe barely had 20 years to catch it's breathe. Russia has no right whatsoever to invade, Ukraine had a choice of what they want to do, but NATO also has a consensual choice of what to do and how to do it as an instrument of peace. I think [MENTION=42592]Here'sWally[/MENTION] has a point to ask that if Russia turns to the West and says, okay we'll stop this shit but you have to give us something in return and it involves an evaluation of the scope of NATO, then the West has to consider that not as appeasement, but as negotiation and compromise, otherwise there is an inevitability about where all this leads and it ain't pretty for anyone. You don't run scared, but then neither do you refuse not to budge. Not that Putin coming to the table seems likely, however as a hypothetical scenario, what would the West be willing to do to achieve peace in Eastern Europe, because the last time we were quite happy to just sign it all over to the Soviet Union.

Ukraine had already given up its nuclear weapons three years after becoming independent. Do you think Putin would've still invaded had she kept them?

How do you achieve peace with a madman?

 

[Notters]

Do we get many consumer products from Russia?

Smirnoff is a Diageo brand, so effectively British. Grey Goose is French and Absolut is Swedish.

That's me told!!!

 

[Bold Seagull]

Ukraine had already given up its nuclear weapons three years after becoming independent. Do you think Putin would've still invaded had she kept them?

How do you achieve peace with a madman?

How do you avoid mutually assured destruction with a madman? is more the question I keep asking myself.

 

[Springal]

Russian standard is only one I could Think of - but even that might be made locally (from Russian ingredients though if their advertising is legit )

 

[albionfan37]

It's really affecting me today too.

The loss of life - on both sides - is utterly horrific, but the images of towns and citiies being utterly destroyed, already in ruins, is just so unfathomable to understand. What benefit, for anyone, can be served by this?

Whatever the intended end-game, sticking in a Putin-puppet leader or whatever, large parts of the country's infrastructure is going to be utterly trashed.

Putin would watch it all burn to be king of the ashes

 

[Thunder Bolt]

How do you avoid mutually assured destruction with a madman? is more the question I keep asking myself.

I can only hope those in charge have more wisdom than us.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I'm certainly not arguing that they had a right to invade. I'm asking what would be required to put an end to this peacefully, and would/should we be willing to give that a try?

Ignoring that it started with a premeditated invasion. You don’t negotiate with people like putin, they only understand power and the desire to do what they want.
The NATO argument is quite frankly bollocks, he wants Ukraine in mother Russia and the Ukrainians do not. That in itself should stop you from indirectly supporting putin.
BTW, this isn’t about Russia and Ukraine. This is putin and the Ukraine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

You think the Belarusians are supportive of their leader? Or subservient? Minsk saw enormous protests to the most recent elections there. The result? Enormous and violent crackdowns. I think you underestimate how easy it is to subjugate a people if you don't give a toss about human rights. Don't get me wrong, the Ukrainian resistance has been incredible, but I can't see any other result at this point.

I was talking about Ukraine though when sanctions start to bite in Belarus then the unrest will start again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[amexer]

Hope I am wrong but just seems inevitable that Ukraine cities over time will be destroyed and to save many lives cant help feeling I want them to give up.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

Mistakes of the past are not to recognise the conflicts you end up creating in the future. The Treaty of Versailles a document of supposed peace that led inevitably to another war failed so badly that Europe barely had 20 years to catch it's breathe. Russia has no right whatsoever to invade, Ukraine had a choice of what they want to do, but NATO also has a consensual choice of what to do and how to do it as an instrument of peace. I think [MENTION=42592]Here'sWally[/MENTION] has a point to ask that if Russia turns to the West and says, okay we'll stop this shit but you have to give us something in return and it involves an evaluation of the scope of NATO, then the West has to consider that not as appeasement, but as negotiation and compromise, otherwise there is an inevitability about where all this leads and it ain't pretty for anyone. You don't run scared, but then neither do you refuse not to budge. Not that Putin coming to the table seems likely, however as a hypothetical scenario, what would the West be willing to do to achieve peace in Eastern Europe, because the last time we were quite happy to just sign it all over to the Soviet Union.

No, for two reasons. 1, we don't negotiate with terrorists. And 2, we don't believe the premise. Russia don't want a security guarantee. They know that NATO presents no security threat (something made clear through OSCE processes). Putin has this perverse plan to reunite Ukraine with Russia against their will and secure his legacy.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Olexandr Usyk, has now joined the armed defence.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/60592069

While he'll be a good figurehead for the resistance, and may encourage many others to join, I can't help thinking that someone who commands £100m for a big fight, could serve the Ukrainian military better by putting on a world title fight and donating the proceeds, than by taking up a rifle?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Hope I am wrong but just seems inevitable that Ukraine cities over time will be destroyed and to save many lives cant help feeling I want them to give up.

I have a different reaction. Admiration that they are not giving up. I would also fight to the death for my family so it is no surprise to me. The best thing we can do is strike back via NATO. In the meantime we do what we can. Sanctions have caused Russian oil to be trading at a huge discount to other similar grades ($18) as people won’t take the risk of buying it. That means that oil from other sources is going up in price and higher pump prices will follow. Let’s hope that people don’t whine about us doing our bit as at least we won’t have missiles flying into our homes.

 

[birthofanorange]

The best thing we can do is strike back via NATO.

The bit in bold is what troubles me:

If NATO does what (in your opinion) is the 'best thing', surely we can say with an (almost) certainty that it's game over for Ukraine. And us. And the Russians. And possibly most of civilisation on Earth.

Why do you consider that the 'best thing'?

 

[Here'sWally]

Ignoring that it started with a premeditated invasion. You don’t negotiate with people like putin, they only understand power and the desire to do what they want.
The NATO argument is quite frankly bollocks, he wants Ukraine in mother Russia and the Ukrainians do not. That in itself should stop you from indirectly supporting putin.
BTW, this isn’t about Russia and Ukraine. This is putin and the Ukraine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I find it really uncomfortable to hear anyone not directly affected by war saying, from a position of saftey, that there shouldn't be any negotiation in an effort to bring peace.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The bit in bold is what troubles me:

If NATO does what (in your opinion) is the 'best thing', surely we can say with an (almost) certainty that it's game over for Ukraine. And us. And the Russians. And possibly most of civilisation on Earth.

Why do you consider that the 'best thing'?

Because you have to consider the alternatives. Putin will be emboldened by victory and it will not stop. By not getting involved we are making others pay the price for our comfortable lives which I think is wrong. Ukraine has asked for more military help but we are suddenly rendered deaf because we think Ukrainian lives are worth less than Western European ones. Sometimes we have to stand up for what we believe in and if we don’t then what’s the point of organizations like the UN ?

 

[Poojah]

Olexandr Usyk, has now joined the armed defence.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/60592069

While he'll be a good figurehead for the resistance, and may encourage many others to join, I can't help thinking that someone who commands £100m for a big fight, could serve the Ukrainian military better by putting on a world title fight and donating the proceeds, than by taking up a rifle?

Ukraine might not have a military by the time he manages to put on a fight. I can understand entirely what he’s done and I also think it’s an act of astonishing bravery and heroism. The chances of serious injury or death must be exceedingly high - he has testicles bigger than any I could ever hope to own.

 

[birthofanorange]

Because you have to consider the alternatives. Putin will be emboldened by victory and it will not stop. By not getting involved we are making others pay the price for our comfortable lives which I think is wrong. Ukraine has asked for more military help but we are suddenly rendered deaf because we think Ukrainian lives are worth less than Western European ones. Sometimes we have to stand up for what we believe in and if we don’t then what’s the point of organizations like the UN ?

I'm afraid the likelihood of rapid M.A.D. trumps your opinion on this. No-one will be left to care whether we did the 'right thing'. No-one at all.
I, for one, have no desire to see what's happening to Ukraine, and the West is doing what it can (sanction-wise, etc.) to help.
The planet does not deserve to effectively die, as that is what's likely to occur if NATO intervenes directly.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

I find it really uncomfortable to hear anyone not directly affected by war saying, from a position of saftey, that there shouldn't be any negotiation in an effort to bring peace.

You appear to be doing to the same. Negotiating peace from a position of safety (NATO country) on behalf of the people fighting the war. Surely it should be up to Ukrainians what peace settlements they accept?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Don't underestimate the Russians. It was a senior Russian submarine officer who averted a world nuclear strike in 1962 in the Cuban conflict.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/how-a-russian-soldier-prevented-world-war-iii-59-years-ago-51120