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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
Really don't get the comparison. NATO is a defensive agreement between sovereign countries. As far as I'm aware, Nato has never sought to invade other territories in order to expand territories. It's a voluntary organisation and has very diverse members ranging from ourselves to Turkey. The members remain sovereign states and the organisation doesn't seek to influence or impose alternative leadership on other members.
The fact remains that the aggressor in this case is Russia. We don't have the right to agree peace by giving away Ukraine territory.
It's not Putin - its the cockroaches. We've been bigging them up for decades.
portslade seagull
Well-known member
Iraq should have been dealt with by sanctions but the Americans were going in come what may for revenge and they coerced the west to support them.
Ukraine is different due to a major power being the one acting on their own with puppet regime Belarus but showing no signs of halting the attack. Sadly I think the sanctions won't work until they have achieved their goal.
The point being made was that *you* know that...I *know* that....but the Russians/Putin perceive it differently. They see it from their perspective and react accordingly. That difference in perspectives is what should have been addressed long before now.
That’s what I spent some time doing last night, of sorts.
Facebook and Twitter have blocked access to Russians but Google maps worked last night. One suggestion, though impossible to know what impact it has, I followed is to give 5 star review to multiple restaurants and business along with comments that Putin is a liar and an image of the What’s App exchange between the solider and mother quoted in the UN assembly (that said ordinary Ukrainians are standing in the way of tanks).
Instructions here with suggested Russian text: https://twitter.com/youranonnews/status/1498337491056836610?s=21
Ps make sure to use a fresh Google account (easy to set up).
portlock seagull
Well-known member
- Jul 28, 2003
- 17,776
Easy enough to say. The real question is how long will the Peace (occupation) last? 50years, like the USSR? 100s, like Imperial Russia? By then it will be Russia. Generations will think of themselves as Russian. Because that’s all they know, speak and serve. You can be sure Putin is ready to kill one more person than anyone else in this unfolding tragedy and that is what makes him so dangerous.
Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
I’m aware of the other side of the argument but if you consider putin’s track record on human rights violations, suppression of opposition and the murder of dissidents outside of Russia, you do have to ask yourself how much is fear of NATO and how much is the act of a despot.
What is fact is that when he annexed eastern Ukraine NATO did nothing which is not the act of an aggressive organisation.
Sorry but this is a land grab based upon the view that Ukraine is part of mother Russia and nothing else.
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Insel affe
HellBilly
I am basically really angry now.
The Ukraine told the UN & NATO what the Russians were going to do, and they knew it, they sat idly by and watched the Russians annex the Crimea and imposed punitive sanctions and deterrents. The world watched as the Russians again built up forces on the Ukrainian border, we all knew what was going to happen…..
What did we do, nothing we sat and watched, and are only now deploring this Russian aggression…
We are imposing sanctions, bank restrictions that will only affect the normal everyday Russian, the very folk we need to change.
The rich and powerful have squirrelled away vast fortunes and they have planned for these sanctions all along amassing a fortune in gold reserves.
We are indeed sending weapons, but won’t impose a no fly zone, as Putin has himself and again today threatened the world with WW3 and nuclear annihilation.
He has the west over a feckin barrel and we are too weak to do anything, we will sit and watch, with less and less interest as the Russians conquer city after city, they will eventually instal a puppet leader, and we will hope Putin keeps to his word and stops at the Ukraine…..
Will he ? Will he feck….
We missed a trick, we dropped the ball, we didn’t listen, we voted for weak and or compromised leaders, like Trump, Biden, Boris,Macron etc.
We are to blame to a certain extent for the coming bloodshed and mass murder about to be committed as the Russians inevitably will turn the screw….
If and when this is resolved, be prepared for the Ukrainians to say, why did not you not listen to us, why did you not help us more.
I am so mad, utterly ashamed of past and present leaders and sad to the point of you know what Russia, press the feckin buttons, if this is the future and the way super powers impose their will on peaceful countries then I don’t think humanity is worth saving….
sorry Ukraine
The Ukraine told the UN & NATO what the Russians were going to do, and they knew it, they sat idly by and watched the Russians annex the Crimea and imposed punitive sanctions and deterrents. The world watched as the Russians again built up forces on the Ukrainian border, we all knew what was going to happen…..
What did we do, nothing we sat and watched, and are only now deploring this Russian aggression…
We are imposing sanctions, bank restrictions that will only affect the normal everyday Russian, the very folk we need to change.
The rich and powerful have squirrelled away vast fortunes and they have planned for these sanctions all along amassing a fortune in gold reserves.
We are indeed sending weapons, but won’t impose a no fly zone, as Putin has himself and again today threatened the world with WW3 and nuclear annihilation.
He has the west over a feckin barrel and we are too weak to do anything, we will sit and watch, with less and less interest as the Russians conquer city after city, they will eventually instal a puppet leader, and we will hope Putin keeps to his word and stops at the Ukraine…..
Will he ? Will he feck….
We missed a trick, we dropped the ball, we didn’t listen, we voted for weak and or compromised leaders, like Trump, Biden, Boris,Macron etc.
We are to blame to a certain extent for the coming bloodshed and mass murder about to be committed as the Russians inevitably will turn the screw….
If and when this is resolved, be prepared for the Ukrainians to say, why did not you not listen to us, why did you not help us more.
I am so mad, utterly ashamed of past and present leaders and sad to the point of you know what Russia, press the feckin buttons, if this is the future and the way super powers impose their will on peaceful countries then I don’t think humanity is worth saving….
sorry Ukraine
herecomesaregular
We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
edit - deleted
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Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
So if it’s perception what could have NATO done to allay putins fears? Re-instate the iron curtain? Handover Ukraine?
Putin is a despot. His record on human rights, suppression of the opposition and murders of opponents is fact. The OP in my IMHO is just a bit to ‘putin … he’s alright, just a bit mid understood’ for my liking.
Let’s not also forget Stalinist treatment of Ukraine and the subsequent famine ….
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beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,013
how can ever have been addressed, other than not allowing anyone to join NATO? or is that it, the solution to keep Russia happy?
herecomesaregular
We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Worth a repost: "Most fascinating thing about the Ukraine war is the sheer number of top strategic thinkers who warned for years that it was coming if we continued down the same path. No-one listened to them and here we are".
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592?s=20&t=hbenIPz4RXW4QtrENq_Chg
Surport Local Team
Well-known member
- Jan 5, 2011
- 709
Who knows Not saying it is the answer but if Ukraine gave up now far less chance of someones family killed and home bombed. I still think best way out will be mass protests in Russia. Maybe a mass leaflet drop to let Russian
How would u suggest doing a leaflet dropI sure putin (if u ask nicely, he seems like a reasonable chap) won't take it as a act of war flying over Russia droping anti russain literature!!!!!
I have no idea what the solution is (or was), as that's for people far better qualified than I am, to resolve. Do you think enough efforts have been made since the break up of the Russian states?
Well you decide.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,013
efforts for what? to embrace the Russian nation and invite them join in on the ideals of market economies, liberal democracy and improvements those ideals bring? absolutly, we've tried to bring them into the fold, overlooking a lot of their domestic habits, to show that trade is the way to prosperity. not that you'd know this from some peoples reaction.
if no one is at war, NATO becomes a bit redundant, not a threat. see how Germany has run done their defense funding, only now to suddenly reinstate the 2% GDP spending.
I've just had a telephone conversation with a Polish friend living and working (for the NHS) in Brighton. Her uncle who lives in western Poland has (as others) driven across the country to the Ukraine border with food and medicine paid out of his own pocket. He has taken a family back to his home town and given them shelter in a flat he is looking after. He is now in a position where as a Pensioner he finds himself having to provide them with food and essentials The Polish Government seems to have the attitude that why should they help him (or at least the refugee family) as it's his problem. That Government has always historically had a negative attitude to refugees.
My friend who just about keeps her head above water on her income in the UK has sent some funds to her uncle.
My friend who just about keeps her head above water on her income in the UK has sent some funds to her uncle.
It’s an interesting take. I imagine Putin probably took note and thought “aha! That’s my reason for going in, thanks chaps”
Hitler used a similar argument saying that sanctions had made Germany vulnerable and that must be redressed.
Putin was always going to try and get Ukraine. The idea that a country of peaceful citizens who gave up all their nukes would want to have a pop at Russia? Come off it. He didn’t want Ukraine to join NATO because he didn’t want to face the might of the members’ forces when he made his move.
It doesn’t matter whether Ukraine wished to join NATO, the EU or the ****ing Tufty Club. That’s their right.
And frankly, if I neighboured Russia, a nation that has already annexed part of my country and kept carrying out military exercises and nuclear drills on my border, I’d want to join NATO. And they were right, weren’t they.