[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[The Clamp]

I'm not boycotting a firm and potentially costing hundreds of people their jobs on the basis of what someone says in Twitter. The one thing I have learnt most in this conflict is not to believe anything I hear until I am certain I can be sure it is safe.

About the only thing I know is that Ukrainians are under attack in their own country.

Quite.

The man is the 7th richest man in Russia with global interests, holdings and investments including North Sea Oil, energy, supermarket chains, property acquisition, technology, finance, logistics, transport, telecoms, and healthcare.

Firstly, one would have to boycott A LOT of things, he owns a lot of stuff! And a lot of infrastructure.

Secondly, boycotting H&B is not going to make a significant dent in his income but it will go some way to making sure shop assistants can’t pay their rent.

 

[Here'sWally]

Sorry - but I totally disagree.

We need to make the lives of every Russian a total misery because only then are they likely to stop their tacit support of Putin's regime and turn against him. Look how pitifully small the anti-war demonstrations have been in Russia.

And if you think the EU, US & UK sanctions won't impact on "ordinary Russians" you are much mistaken.

No I think the opposite, they will impact ordinary Russians, who I very much doubt will take it as an invitation to work together with us and see things from the Wests point of view.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Quite.

The man is the 7th richest man in Russia with global interests, holdings and investments including North Sea Oil, energy, supermarket chains, property acquisition, technology, finance, logistics, transport, telecoms, and healthcare.

Firstly, one would have to boycott A LOT of things, he owns a lot of stuff! And a lot of infrastructure.

Secondly, boycotting H&B is not going to make a significant dent in his income but it will go some way to making sure shop assistants can’t pay their rent.

There are loads of jobs available in retail at present. I've seen signs in shop windows asking for staff to apply.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Well looks like the IOC have bottled it and allowed Para Olympic athletics from Russia to compete under their flag

We need to bring our athletes home and boycott this disgusting event.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Abramovich wants to sell Chelsea:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60585081

[MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION], how much have we got in the coffers?

We could use Chelsea as our feeder club, flog Lukaku etc.

His PR machine has really started to get going now...

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

This is one shop I shall be boycotting in the future. A small gesture but one I will make.

[tweet]1498965883321991168[/tweet]

Blimey.

I didn't know. I won't go through their dark doorway again.

 

[Here'sWally]

An unfortunate side-effect of sanctions, is that they hit the little people.

But the main aim of sanctions is to disable the Russian war machine, financed by a war chest estimated to be 600 billion USD.
By trashing the ruble, and preventing The Russian central bank to use its foreign currency reserves to buy products, parts and technology for the war-machine, the sanctions are already well on the way to achieving this goal.

Protests are spreading. On Sunday, there were anti-war protests across nearly 50 Russian cities.

Your view of the future - and the Russian 'electorate' - is not taking into account current events. And they are unfolding quickly.

Sanctions which hurt Russia's ability to wage this war are one thing, and they will hurt ordinary people, but those are not what I am talking about.

I am talking about things like Apple Pay and Google Pay no longer working on Moscow's metro system, or Russians not longer being able to use their Visa and Mastercard. Using sport and music, things which should build bridges and foster a sense of solidarity, to burn bridges and foster a sense of isolation and punishment. These things don't affect Russia's military capabilities, but they will marginalize and alienate the very people who we would like to, and could otherwise, have on our side.

 

[jakarta]

No I think the opposite, they will impact ordinary Russians, who I very much doubt will take it as an invitation to work together with us and see things from the Wests point of view.

However it may make them think about how and why all this came to pass in less than a week after their invasion?

 

[The Clamp]

There are loads of jobs available in retail at present. I've seen signs in shop windows asking for staff to apply.

I greatly respect your posts, which is what makes that one particularly disappointing.

 

[usernamed]

However it may make them think about how and why all this come to pass in less than a week after their invasion?

If they only watch official news channels, then they don’t know they have invaded. Even the parents of the soldiers involved thought their kids were off doing training exercises.

 

[trueblue]

Sorry - but I totally disagree.

We need to make the lives of every Russian a total misery because only then are they likely to stop their tacit support of Putin's regime and turn against him. Look how pitifully small the anti-war demonstrations have been in Russia.

And if you think the EU, US & UK sanctions won't impact on "ordinary Russians" you are much mistaken.

This does seem the obvious approach - and I'm not saying it's wrong - but other perspectives are interesting. I took some time reading the Moscow Times the other day to try to get some sense of how this is playing in Russia. The English language version was broadly in line with Western coverage. The Russian version similar (it doesn't go in for blatant propaganda like Russia Today etc) but choosing words more carefully. No 'invasion' for instance, but still reporting the Kyiv attacks. Their poll of the public showed, I seem to remember, 68% or thereabouts, support for what's happening. Of course, some of those respondents may have been scared to voice their true feelings. However, mostly that support seems to come from believing the line that Russia is fighting fascism and not being aware of the attacks on the wider country beyond the annexed east of Ukraine. Social media etc is nowhere near as influential as it is here. In a separate story, I've seen that 80% of Russians still rely on state media for their news.

Anyway, that's a slight digression.Getting back to the point, there was one very interesting opinion piece. It argued that while freezing the assets of billionaires & big companies is useful, preventing every day Russians from moving their limited amounts of money outside of the country plays into Putin's hands. The Kremlin is desperate to keep cash within the borders and Russian citizens where it can control them. Travel restrictions on ordinary Russians perhaps only lock them into receiving Putin's distorted and narrow world view. Making it EASIER for ordinary Russians to leave the country as it suffers might even be beneficial. They get to experience the advantages of living in the West, see what Putin is really doing and that message feeds back to those who remain. And they are far more likely to trust the word of their sons, daughters, brothers and sisters than believe news emanating from Western European countries that they have forever been told are out to get them.

This chimed with my own experience during 6 weeks in Moscow at the last World Cup where many Russians I met were plainly surprised and delighted to discover that foreigners really did not hate them or their country. I'm not convinced complete isolation will be as effective as might initially seem to be the case. It's possible it will only add credibility to the message that the West is out to get Russia, and reinforce Putin's position.

 

[Eeyore]

I greatly respect your posts, which is what makes that one particularly disappointing.

Yes, I enjoy reading TB. very rational and thoughtful. But that one is a little disappointing and from the cosy hearth. Still, opinions, opinions.

 

[nicko31]

Under normal Communism, I would agree, but Putin seems to be running the Country more and more like Fascism under the disguise of Communism. The sooner the general public realise this, the sooner they will revolt.

Yeap they need to get the message, still a lot of Russians support Putin, kicking them out of all global sporting and cultural activities is a good way to cut through Russia propaganda. They can spin it how like, they are now an International pariah..

Team GB, get on the plane. You need to come home, sorry...

 

[nicko31]

His PR machine has really started to get going now...

Fill his empty mansion in Kensington with refugees

 

[Here'sWally]

There is a piece in the Guardian about the role NATO expasion has played in this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

I know there are aguments for and against that point of view, but what shocks me is the fact that on TV (I'm watching BBC News most of the time), there isn't any mention at all of any of this. There doesn't seem to be any desire in the media to ask the question, "how did we get here?". The only explanations offered up on TV news seem to be, "Putin is a madman, he wants to reconsistute the Soviet Union", followed by suggestions that this is 1939 again and maybe Putin has had a stroke. I do not expect Western commentators to generally promote the idea that this War can be justified, it can't. But the idea that it also can't be explained I find really shocking. I think the media have a duty to provide real context here, but the problem is that context makes the situation a little more complicated and nuanced. But that's because it is, and people really need to know that.

 

[Eric the meek]

Sanctions which hurt Russia's ability to wage this war are one thing, and they will hurt ordinary people, but those are not what I am talking about.

I am talking about things like Apple Pay and Google Pay no longer working on Moscow's metro system, or Russians not longer being able to use their Visa and Mastercard. Using sport and music, things which should build bridges and foster a sense of solidarity, to burn bridges and foster a sense of isolation and punishment. These things don't affect Russia's military capabilities, but they will marginalize and alienate the very people who we would like to, and could otherwise, have on our side.

Well I'm talking about them !

But going on to your things like Apple Pay and Google Pay etc, these are precisely the things that will make ordinary Russians sit up and take notice, discuss with friends on social media etc.

'Why can't I use my phone to buy my subway tickets any more? There's not a mention of it anywhere on state TV, but people on social media are saying it's because we invaded Ukraine! I thought we had gone there to help some Russian speakers escape genocide?' and so it begins.

Those ordinary people will be comparing what they hear on social media with the alternative reality they see on state TV. I would suggest that it is quite possible that this process is already irreversible. Embrace it, and witness 144 million Russians come in from the cold to enjoy the freedoms that you and I take for granted, but which they haven't experienced in 100 years of communist and KGB rule.

 

[Eric the meek]

There is a piece in the Guardian about the role NATO expasion has played in this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

I know there are aguments for and against that point of view, but what shocks me is the fact that on TV (I'm watching BBC News most of the time), there isn't any mention at all of any of this. There doesn't seem to be any desire in the media to ask the question, "how did we get here?". The only explanations offered up on TV news seem to be, "Putin is a madman, he wants to reconsistute the Soviet Union", followed by suggestions that this is 1939 again and maybe Putin has had a stroke. I do not expect Western commentators to generally promote the idea that this War can be justified, it can't. But the idea that it also can't be explained I find really shocking. I think the media have a duty to provide real context here, but the problem is that context makes the situation a little more complicated and nuanced. But that's because it is, and people really need to know that.

You will find that NATO has expanded because countries surrounding Russia want to join it. Countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland etc WANTED to join NATO. Ukraine also wants to join NATO. Can you think of a reason why that might be? Go on. Give it a go....

 

[Igzilla]

Brilliant, just brilliant, I have now done this to about 20 places in St Petersburg, restaurants, stake park, shops lol

I might have a go at this as well, but think I'll set up a more anonymous Google account and use a VPN to post the pictures to make it look like it's come from Armenia or somewhere.

 

[Here'sWally]

Well I'm talking about them !

But going on to your things like Apple Pay and Google Pay etc, these are precisely the things that will make ordinary Russians sit up and take notice, discuss with friends on social media etc.

'Why can't I use my phone to buy my subway tickets any more? There's not a mention of it anywhere on state TV, but people on social media are saying it's because we invaded Ukraine! I thought we had gone there to help some Russian speakers escape genocide?' and so it begins.

Those ordinary people will be comparing what they hear on social media with the alternative reality they see on state TV. I would suggest that it is quite possible that this process is already irreversible. Embrace it, and witness 144 million Russians come in from the cold to enjoy the freedoms that you and I take for granted, but which they haven't experienced in 100 years of communist and KGB rule.

I think this is naive. They think the West is anti Russia. The West in punishing them. They aren't going to think that the person giving them a clip around the ear is their friend, and the person who has been warning them about the person giving them a clip around the ear is their enemey.

I don't buy that Russians have no idea what is going on. I do think it's being presented quite differently. It's being presented to them in the same way as intervention in the middle east has always been presented to us. Humanitarian intervention to protect people (in the east) from atrocities being committed by the Ukranian military (including NeoNazi elements). We always felt passionately that Islamists targeting civilians needed to be stopped and we had a duty to do it (in the middle east). I imagine this is the message and feeling in Russia about Ukraine. I'm not trying to make that point. I'm saying that I can imagine what the messaging is and the response to it, we've seen similar things first hand here, just in different contexts.

 

[The Clamp]

Ukraine is rich in resources.