[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Here'sWally]

You will find that NATO has expanded because countries surrounding Russia want to join it. Countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland etc WANTED to join NATO. Ukraine also wants to join NATO. Can you think of a reason why that might be? Go on. Give it a go....

I wasn't make a point about NATO expansion either way. I was making the point that the subject is relevant, but being almost completely ignored.

 

[pb21]

I wasn't make a point about NATO expansion either way. I was making the point that the subject is relevant, but being almost completely ignored.

I've seen it discussed loads

 

[GT49er]

Yeap they need to get the message, still a lot of Russians support Putin, kicking them out of all global sporting and cultural activities is a good way to cut through Russia propaganda. They can spin it how like, they are now an International pariah..

Team GB, get on the plane. You need to come home, sorry...

In some ways the sporting sanctions are as important as the financial ones - Russian teams kicked out of Europe, Russia booted out or the world cup - that's a difficult one to put a spin on, and it will annoy a lot of football (and other sport) loving Russians. Sporting boycott worked in South Africa - let's hope it works again (hopefully rather quicker too).

 

[Here'sWally]

I've seen it discussed loads

Like I said, I'm primarily watching BBC News, and it's not been a subject up for discussion really.

 

[Eric the meek]

I think this is naive. They think the West is anti Russia. The West in punishing them. They aren't going to think that the person giving them a clip around the ear is their friend, and the person who has been warning them about the person giving them a clip around the ear is their enemey.

I don't buy that Russians have no idea what is going on. I do think it's being presented quite differently. It's being presented to them in the same way as intervention in the middle east has always been presented to us. Humanitarian intervention to protect people (in the east) from atrocities being committed by the Ukranian military (including NeoNazi elements). We always felt passionately that Islamists targeting civilians needed to be stopped and we had a duty to do it (in the middle east). I imagine this is the message and feeling in Russia about Ukraine. I'm not trying to make that point. I'm saying that I can imagine what the messaging is and the response to it, we've seen first hand here, just in different contexts.

I'm glad you think it's naive. How do you think the protesters in 50 cities across Russia found out that there's a war (not the 'special military exercise' on state TV) going on? Was it by magic? Why do you think the Russian state has banned its troops in Ukraine from using smart phones? The genie is already out of the box.

 

[drew]

Drew ..do you know what I do

No, why would I?

 

[Springal]

I think this is naive. They think the West is anti Russia. The West in punishing them. They aren't going to think that the person giving them a clip around the ear is their friend, and the person who has been warning them about the person giving them a clip around the ear is their enemey.

I don't buy that Russians have no idea what is going on. I do think it's being presented quite differently. It's being presented to them in the same way as intervention in the middle east has always been presented to us. Humanitarian intervention to protect people (in the east) from atrocities being committed by the Ukranian military (including NeoNazi elements). We always felt passionately that Islamists targeting civilians needed to be stopped and we had a duty to do it (in the middle east). I imagine this is the message and feeling in Russia about Ukraine. I'm not trying to make that point. I'm saying that I can imagine what the messaging is and the response to it, we've seen similar things first hand here, just in different contexts.

Interesting one. I work for a US company with about 40 employees in Russia and I have been thinking what they think. Although our corporate messaging has been very 'supportive of Ukraine' with no mention of Russia in any statements, they must know.

Also interesting to see how the sanctions work, I can't see how a US company (although has an EU HQ for employees this way) can keep employing Russian people and being able to pay them etc

I know there has been some 'beef' as there is a fairly famous female DJ - Nina Kraviz. She has made a lot of money touring the world DJing and pretty affiliated to Berlin. She must know what the Western World thinks of Putin over the years, yet over the years she has put out some fairly strong / supportive Putin tweets and she has been very quiet - except removing anything discussing Ukraine and even blocking a few famous Ukranian DJs on social media now who have asked for her thoughts. Yet this weekend Nina is playing some major US festivals and earning $$$ no doubt ..

 

[Here'sWally]

I'm glad you think it's naive. How do you think the protesters in 50 cities across Russia found out that there's a war (not the 'special military exercise' on state TV) going on? Was it by magic? Why do you think the Russian state has banned its troops in Ukraine from using smart phones? The genie is already out of the box.

I don't think it's much different to the protests we had over the Wars in the middle east. Just like here back then, many Russians will hate this War. Maybe even more so because of the close ties to Ukraine. But anti-war sentiment didn't stop the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We shouldn't assume they will make a difference in Russia over this.

I just hope this can go from fighting to talking as soon as possible. There are talks due later today I think, there will be a strong desire from both sides to end this asap, I would think.

 

[beorhthelm]

There is a piece in the Guardian about the role NATO expasion has played in this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

I know there are aguments for and against that point of view, but what shocks me is the fact that on TV (I'm watching BBC News most of the time), there isn't any mention at all of any of this. There doesn't seem to be any desire in the media to ask the question, "how did we get here?". The only explanations offered up on TV news seem to be, "Putin is a madman, he wants to reconsistute the Soviet Union", followed by suggestions that this is 1939 again and maybe Putin has had a stroke. I do not expect Western commentators to generally promote the idea that this War can be justified, it can't. But the idea that it also can't be explained I find really shocking. I think the media have a duty to provide real context here, but the problem is that context makes the situation a little more complicated and nuanced. But that's because it is, and people really need to know that.

the only people blaming NATO are people who'd like to see everyone demilitarise. the only action that would have prevented this war would be Ukraine rolling over and being a proxy state of Russia. their people thought otherwise. Putin himself said he wants to re-establish the Russian empire, that aim was fostered without NATO help.

 

[The Clamp]

Like I said, I'm primarily watching BBC News, and it's not been a subject up for discussion really.

There’s a fair bit of discussion on the subject on the BBC and has been for decades. It’s interesting though, you raise a good issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=nato+expansion

 

[Eric the meek]

I don't think it's much different to the protests we had over the Wars in the middle east. Just like here back then, many Russians will hate this War. Maybe even more so because of the close ties to Ukraine. But anti-war sentiment didn't stop the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We shouldn't assume they will make a difference in Russia over this.

I just hope this can go from fighting to talking as soon as possible. There are talks due later today I think, there will be a strong desire from both sides to end this asap, I would think.

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again. (Remember what happened when we engaged a few days ago. You changed the subject....)

'How do you think the protesters in 50 cities across Russia found out that there's a war (not the 'special military exercise' on state TV) going on?'

 

[LamieRobertson]

No, why would I?

Quite right why should you …hopefully the pm cleared things …peace

 

[Here'sWally]

the only people blaming NATO are people who'd like to see everyone demilitarise. the only action that would have prevented this war would be Ukraine rolling over and being a proxy state of Russia. their people thought otherwise.

If I'm not mistaken Russia has been saying what it wants for a while. No NATO membership and protections for the ethnic Russians in the east. Why would Ukraine be a proxy of Russia? If Russia had got what it asked for it would still have had what is a pro Western government. Do you not think a neutral Ukraine would have been acceptable to Russia?

This is the real question, I think. Do Russia want Ukraine under Russian control? Or do they want it not to be under U.S./NATO control? The Western narrative is the former, and the Russian narrative is the latter.

It looks like a tug of war to me, and Ukraine is caught in the middle. I can't help but think that compromise was possible earlier and could have prevented this.

 

[Here'sWally]

There’s a fair bit of discussion on the subject on the BBC and has been for decades. It’s interesting though, you raise a good issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=nato+expansion

I mean right now, in the contect of what is happening.

 

[The Clamp]

If I'm not mistaken Russia has been saying what it wants for a while. No NATO membership and protections for the ethnic Russians in the east. Why would Ukraine be a proxy of Russia? If Russia had got what it asked for it would still have had what is a pro Western government. Do you not think a neutral Ukraine would have been acceptable to Russia?

This is the real question, I think. Do Russia want Ukraine under Russian control? Or do they want it not to be under U.S./NATO control? The Western narrative is the former, and the Russian narrative is the latter.

It looks like a tug of war to me, and Ukraine is caught in the middle. I can't help but think that compromise was possible earlier and could have prevented this.

In my opinion…
Russia or Putin rather, wants Ukraine under Russian rule. Ukraine is rich is resources. That’s one reason. The other is that Putin wants the old empire back. And he already had an excuse to go further into Ukraine.
Well, he’s had a couple. NATO expansion and Ukraine is Russian anyway, he claims.
Both bullshit imo.

 

[Surport Local Team]

If I'm not mistaken Russia has been saying what it wants for a while. No NATO membership and protections for the ethnic Russians in the east. Why would Ukraine be a proxy of Russia? If Russia had got what it asked for it would still have had what is a pro Western government. Do you not think a neutral Ukraine would have been acceptable to Russia?

This is the real question, I think. Do Russia want Ukraine under Russian control? Or do they want it not to be under U.S./NATO control? The Western narrative is the former, and the Russian narrative is the latter.

It looks like a tug of war to me, and Ukraine is caught in the middle. I can't help but think that compromise was possible earlier and could have prevented this.

That's the point, in not up to Russia to decide the future of Ukraine! Its up to Ukraine! If they want to join NATO they should be aloud!! Or can we start a war with France because we don't want them in Europe and they attack our fishermen!

 

[The Clamp]

I mean right now, in the contect of what is happening.

Yes. I know what you meant. It’s all there. Every news platform is discussing it “right now” and most have been discussing it for decades.
I’m not sure what point you’re making now.

 

[pb21]

Do Russia want Ukraine under Russian control? Or do they want it not to be under U.S./NATO control? The Western narrative is the former, and the Russian narrative is the latter.

Isn't the 'Russian narrative' the former too?

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

That only works when the majority of the population is supportive of at least subservient. That’s not the case here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You think the Belarusians are supportive of their leader? Or subservient? Minsk saw enormous protests to the most recent elections there. The result? Enormous and violent crackdowns. I think you underestimate how easy it is to subjugate a people if you don't give a toss about human rights. Don't get me wrong, the Ukrainian resistance has been incredible, but I can't see any other result at this point.

 

[Here'sWally]

Yes. I know what you meant. It’s all there. Every news platform is discussing it “right now” and most have been discussing it for decades.
I’m not sure what point you’re making now.

Well I clicked your link with the search on the BBC, and the last result is 4th Feb. I would think maybe it has some additional relevance since then. Like I said, I've been watching the coverage on the BBC. It's not been discussed.