[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[portlock seagull]

@GoldstoneVintage whilst that’s all interesting, it’s not exactly original and all in the how to be a Dictator playbook - a copy of which Trump also has eg controlling the media and creating a sense of them and us amongst Americans. My point is this has all been done before. My concern is how have a majority of the American people fallen for it? The only answer I have is maybe it’s just the human condition? We all share primeval fears as well as hopes, but the former is stronger and much easier to exploit I guess?

 

[Nobby]

Remember the bloke who asked Zelensky why he wasn't wearing a suit? He is now a victim.

Oh dear what a shame never mind

Next!

 

[Nobby]

Someone fetch me the Windsor Davies meme.

Beat me to it!!

 

[Mellotron]

My concern is how have a majority of the American people fallen for it?

They haven't - this is important to remember in terms of not wanting to feel hopeless.

29.7% of adult US citizens voted for him. Just over a quarter.

 

[portlock seagull]

Sadly that is possible - but countries won't be "in the best of health" either if Putin runs through their borders.
Politicians are paid to make tough calls - I hope they make the right ones here.

True, although I don’t believe the war will escalate beyond Ukraine. Democracies by nature seem to need to take a sucker punch or even punches before becoming serious about enemies. Sort of a price we have to pay because freedom enables others that want to do us harm. I’ve little faith in present leaders doing more than further deferring debating and dithering whilst Russian provocation and hostile acts increases. They’re blinded by trying to work out Trump and our new relationship with America. A hundred years of shared values and friendship got ripped up this past week or so, this seismic shock will take a long time yet to process. Not to mention Politicians make Tortoises look like F1 cars when it comes to action!

 

[Brian Munich]

@GoldstoneVintage whilst that’s all interesting, it’s not exactly original and all in the how to be a Dictator playbook - a copy of which Trump also has eg controlling the media and creating a sense of them and us amongst Americans. My point is this has all been done before. My concern is how have a majority of the American people fallen for it? The only answer I have is maybe it’s just the human condition? We all share primeval fears as well as hopes, but the former is stronger and much easier to exploit I guess?

There's a huge number of people that lack the ability for critical thinking and will believe everything told to them by someone on TV, or stuff they read on social media. My missus has an aunt who is now in her late 50s and emigrated to the US in her 20s. I've been friends with her on Facebook for years, but over the last 4-5 years I've had to mute her as she mostly posts a torrent of rediculous shite as FACT. It's mostly anti-vax stuff where Covid is a hoax to enable Bill Gates to put microchips inside us; or alternatively, it's conspiracies relating to the MMR vaccine. None of it has medical substantiation and nearly all derives from anecdotal posts on Facebook or Insta.

Having seen how easily someone like her is manipulated into ignoring qualified medical advice because of stuff she's read on social media, it doesn't take much to realise that pursuading people to vote a certain way would be fairly easy as well.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There is a f***ing war on, let us not forget that whilst we are frivilously posting comments, people are being killed wholesale.
Trump has only had a month of being fully in charge, can the world take another 4 years of this ? I suspect he will be taken out soon and thank f' for that. Looks like Europe has bottled it over Ukraine and Zalensky has to go cap in hand back to USA, well dome Europe for nothing. War should have been declared on Russia and Putin should be taken out.
Stop f***ing around and get the job done ffs.
'Lest we forget,' didn't take long did it.

It is a viewpoint. I'll grant you that.

 

[portlock seagull]

They haven't - this is important to remember in terms of not wanting to feel hopeless.

29.7% of adult US citizens voted for him. Just over a quarter.

Semantics. I’m not going to write ‘the majority of able to vote and could be bothered to Americans’ each time when we both know that’s what was meant. Moreover, counted.

 

[portlock seagull]

There's a huge number of people that lack the ability for critical thinking and will believe everything told to them by someone on TV, or stuff they read on social media. My missus has an aunt who is now in her late 50s and emigrated to the US in her 20s. I've been friends with her on Facebook for years, but over the last 4-5 years I've had to mute her as she mostly posts a torrent of rediculous shite as FACT. It's mostly anti-vax stuff where Covid is a hoax to enable Bill Gates to put microchips inside us; or alternatively, it's conspiracies relating to the MMR vaccine. None of it has medical substantiation and nearly all derives from anecdotal posts on Facebook or Insta.

Having seen how easily someone like her is manipulated into ignoring qualified medical advice because of stuff she's read on social media, it doesn't take much to realise that pursuading people to vote a certain way would be fairly easy as well.

Nailed it. But for a quicker summation, we’re taking about ‘thickos’ aren’t we? Too dumb to be trusted with a ballot paper never mind a gun in America!

 

[Mellotron]

Semantics. I’m not going to write ‘the majority of able to vote and could be bothered to Americans’ each time when we both know that’s what was meant. Moreover, counted.

It's not semantics whatsoever - by saying "a majority of the american people" most would assume you were suggesting most Americans like Trump, when the hard facts tell us the truth is absolutely nowhere near that.

 

[Nobby]

A bit unclear but looks likely
Kyiv Independent says the US has stopped sharing (certain?) intelligence with Ukraine. Could hamper long range strikes.
I couldn't share it...will try again.

Why don’t they just invite the Russians into the Pentagon and go all in!!

 

[CHAPPERS]

Experts said that the impact of US restrictions on intelligence sharing with Ukraine would depend partly on what precisely had been stopped – and emphasised that Kyiv was already more capable than Washington appreciated.

A western expert, familiar with Ukraine’s conduct of the war, said that Kyiv already made heavy use of open source and human intelligence to identify Russian targets in the rear and wasn’t particularly dependent on the US for targeting information.

Giving an example, the person said that “oil refineries don’t move,” citing a frequent target of Ukrainian long range-drone attacks. “Donald Trump might be surprised to find that when he pulls the levers they have little impact,” they added.

US curbs intelligence sharing with Ukraine – Europe live

CIA director indicates move is temporary and limited in scope in order to force sides back to negotiations

www.theguardian.com

 

[Nobby]

There's a huge number of people that lack the ability for critical thinking and will believe everything told to them by someone on TV, or stuff they read on social media. My missus has an aunt who is now in her late 50s and emigrated to the US in her 20s. I've been friends with her on Facebook for years, but over the last 4-5 years I've had to mute her as she mostly posts a torrent of rediculous shite as FACT. It's mostly anti-vax stuff where Covid is a hoax to enable Bill Gates to put microchips inside us; or alternatively, it's conspiracies relating to the MMR vaccine. None of it has medical substantiation and nearly all derives from anecdotal posts on Facebook or Insta.

Having seen how easily someone like her is manipulated into ignoring qualified medical advice because of stuff she's read on social media, it doesn't take much to realise that pursuading people to vote a certain way would be fairly easy as well.

In the end the strong will survive as Darwin pointed out.
Stupid genes will be eliminated
But it will take too long for the rest of us

 

[raymondo]

True, although I don’t believe the war will escalate beyond Ukraine. Democracies by nature seem to need to take a sucker punch or even punches before becoming serious about enemies. Sort of a price we have to pay because freedom enables others that want to do us harm. I’ve little faith in present leaders doing more than further deferring debating and dithering whilst Russian provocation and hostile acts increases. They’re blinded by trying to work out Trump and our new relationship with America. A hundred years of shared values and friendship got ripped up this past week or so, this seismic shock will take a long time yet to process. Not to mention Politicians make Tortoises look like F1 cars when it comes to action!

Definitely blinded by Trump and the ripping up of shared values - yes, hard to process.
IMO the US sanctions will have been eased or stopped within 6 months, and Putin WILL feel emboldened to test the border at Lithuania and/or something at Moldova.
Trump may even tip him off that NATO won't react to an incursion in Lithuania, but I hope to goodness that European countries would support them unilaterally.

 

[Brian Munich]

Nailed it. But for a quicker summation, we’re taking about ‘thickos’ aren’t we? Too dumb to be trusted with a ballot paper never mind a gun in America!

More or less, yes. I wouldn't necessarily class her as a thicko, but certainly easily pursuaded.

Remember 20+ years ago when you used to get well-meaning emails forwarded to you warning you of various elaborate but easily-disprovable scams, and then when Facebook became popular similar people would similar share hoaxes as well as stuff about people going to your local park and putting nails in dog food or other sorts of nasty deeds? This was failry harmless, but then I reckon that more sinister operators saw how easily people would believe stuff and started using it in political campaigns.

 

[raymondo]

US curbs intelligence sharing with Ukraine – Europe live

CIA director indicates move is temporary and limited in scope in order to force sides back to negotiations

www.theguardian.com

And what will they do to force Russia to negotiate?
Ahh... Ukraine gets the stick and Russia will get the carrot.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

There's a huge number of people that lack the ability for critical thinking and will believe everything told to them by someone on TV, or stuff they read on social media. My missus has an aunt who is now in her late 50s and emigrated to the US in her 20s. I've been friends with her on Facebook for years, but over the last 4-5 years I've had to mute her as she mostly posts a torrent of rediculous shite as FACT. It's mostly anti-vax stuff where Covid is a hoax to enable Bill Gates to put microchips inside us; or alternatively, it's conspiracies relating to the MMR vaccine. None of it has medical substantiation and nearly all derives from anecdotal posts on Facebook or Insta.

Having seen how easily someone like her is manipulated into ignoring qualified medical advice because of stuff she's read on social media, it doesn't take much to realise that pursuading people to vote a certain way would be fairly easy as well.

Sad but very true. There are many out there. Incredibly depressing for those with critical thinking ability. We all get dragged down together. I am long past the point of having sympathy for (many) of these people though. The t'internet and social media has gone from cat videos and family holiday pics - to the most destructive and powerful disinformation tool in human history.

 

[chickens]

Nailed it. But for a quicker summation, we’re taking about ‘thickos’ aren’t we? Too dumb to be trusted with a ballot paper never mind a gun in America!

America has worked to get there. Oppose cuts or ideological changes to state education provision if you want the next generation to have the critical thinking abilities to not fall for this horseshit.

 

[peterward]

Exactly. I'm expecting the 'peace' deal with Russia, supported by the US, to include full annexation of the partially occupied Oblasts of Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia etc. I fully expect it.
At that point Ukraine and Europe MUST tell Trump to fxck off...if not now.
It's Ukraine and Europe vs Russia and the US at this rate.

Zelensky said yesterday, there will be no legal recognition or legal relinguishing of Ukrainian lands, he also said theyll be no weakening of constitution or forced elections.

 

[raymondo]

Zelensky said yesterday, there will be no legal recognition or legal relinguishing of Ukrainian lands, he also said theyll be no weakening of constitution or forced elections.

Thank you.
I also believe the resolve of the soldiers at the front line (albeit exhausted) won't weaken either: