[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[cunning fergus]

I’ve seen you make this statement several times. It’s nonsense. This article is 2 years old. Are you saying it was wrong then or that they have gone back to getting their oil and gas from Russia?

Germany says it is no longer reliant on Russian energy - BBC News

New sources of energy mean Germany is no longer dependent on Russia, Germany's finance minister said.

www.bbc.com

Of course Europe is still importing gas from Russia!!

European imports of liquefied natural gas from Russia at ‘record levels’

Rystad Energy releases data days after Ukraine stopped flows of Russian gas through its pipelines

search.app

It’s still importing raw materials too, I suspect gas would still be coming through Nord Stream pipeline had it known been blown up by the Ukrainians……..no wait!!!

 

[Insel affe]

But wait. What's this?

(Zelensky looks forlorn, resigned).

Zelensky looks broken, as if he knows how this will end, a trade off and a cold cell in Siberia

 

[Flounce]

Zelensky looks broken, as if he knows how this will end, a trade off

Three years of an attritional war and Trump now siding with the Russians would do that to all but a superhero

 

[armchairclubber]

The pitfalls worrying officials ahead of Starmer's US trip

When Sir Keir Starmer touches down in Washington next week, he will be treading a fine diplomatic line.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC's take on it, tight rope walk without a balancing pole.

What an absolutely extraordinary article.

Is Bozzas sticky yesterday not to speak on a certain conflict on NSC now reaching and being applied at the BBC?
And by Starmer.

It's all about Ukraine, defence spending and trade, not a mention of the 'other'.
Zilch.

I hope the British people can fully see how this is being framed, particularly if and when more troops are asked to step in / up.

 

[Eric the meek]

Without Zelensky I suggest Ukraine would be part of Russia by now?

The guy is being sold down the river by Trump imo

It may be that all of it was orchestrated, planned and premeditated with a sequence of leak, threat, offer etc.

The meeting(s) with the Russians, without Ukraine.
The ridiculous lowball offer to Zelensky, which they knew he would reject.
The sidelining of Kellogg.
Calls for an election.
Rumours of regime change being discussed in the Oval Office.
And then, an improved offer....

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

To quote Bismarck, you don’t stop an army on the border with eloquence. You need an army and that army needs to possess the will to fight. This is by its leaders, it’s constituents and it’s underlying population.

Russia has demonstrated throughout the last 3 years that it is a functioning army, can absorb casualties and loss of material whilst maintaining a will to fight. Sure it may not be as technically advanced as aspects of western forces but it is an experienced army tested by 3 years of war.

A NATO without the US is essentially us, the French and Germany, and the Germans won’t fight Russia because it is politically unpopular and their prosperity is dependent on cheap Russian energy. Everyone knows this, it’s because of Germany Ukraine wasn’t allowed to join NATO, to quote Zelenskyy.

France spends less than us on defence, and we possess less than 20000 front line troops.

Eastern European countries are not fighting either, for same reasons as Germany.

As previously referenced, polling indicates only 11% of 18-27 year olds would fight for the U.K. and I suspect that means even less for Ukraine. This country has no will to fight, and people, especially on this board are deluded if they think we can put a BEF into Ukraine.

Diversity is strength except when what you really want is homogeneity. That ship has sailed.

Quoting Bismark if reference to modern warfare is just stupid. Bismark’s war, was a war of troops in Trenches, where land grabs was men running into machine gun fire. The main element of modern warfare is control of the sky’s which wasn’t really a thing in his day, which drones have made it very interesting. It’s no more than ever the case of kit being the deciding factor, you only have to look at Russian armour to see that and an air force than won’t leave Russian air space.

Todays army are professional and equipped for the task in hand, which the Russians are not.

 

[Flounce]

It may be that all of it was orchestrated, planned and premeditated with a sequence of leak, threat, offer etc.

The meeting(s) with the Russians, without Ukraine.
The ridiculous lowball offer to Zelensky, which they knew he would reject.
The sidelining of Kellogg.
Calls for an election.
Rumours of regime change being discussed in the Oval Office.
And then, an improved offer....

A regime change would almost certainly require American boots on the ground in Ukraine

 

[SouthSaxon]

As previously referenced, polling indicates only 11% of 18-27 year olds would fight for the U.K. and I suspect that means even less for Ukraine. This country has no will to fight, and people, especially on this board are deluded if they think we can put a BEF into Ukraine.

Seeing as you continue to peddle this stat, let’s apply some critical thinking to it. Here’s the source:

It’s more accurate to say that between 48% and 59% would be willing to fight. The 11% are those who would fight regardless of the reason.

Public attitudes are generally supportive of Ukraine and recognise Putin for what he is. There’s no reason to think from this survey that the UK can’t increase its defensive capability.

The survey as a whole tells me that today’s young generation is more discerning, more sceptical and think more critically than past generations. Those are all positives. It gives me cause for hope, not despair.

 

[cunning fergus]

You are conflating two things. Ability to fight and diversity.

You often write a load of stuff, and then introduce diversity,

Give it a rest.

Dance classes, diversity and controlling our borders have f all to do with this forum.

Peddle your poison elsewhere.

Why do you think polling suggests only 11% would fight for U.K.?

By the way I wouldn’t lay that solely at the door of diversity, as c. 40% wouldn’t fight at all under any circumstances.

Fact is the past is a different country and we are no longer the country we once were.

Understanding that and how we got there (which includes understanding ALL the threats we face) is 100% relevant to this thread.

If you and your fellow travellers do understand that issue you’ll be in for a severe wake up call.

It’s like no one has learnt from Brexit…….

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Of course Europe is still importing gas from Russia!!

European imports of liquefied natural gas from Russia at ‘record levels’

Rystad Energy releases data days after Ukraine stopped flows of Russian gas through its pipelines

search.app

It’s still importing raw materials too, I suspect gas would still be coming through Nord Stream pipeline had it known been blown up by the Ukrainians……..no wait!!!

And like the Baltic states with electricity it’s slowly getting new supplies. That by the way is where sustainables come into play. Who f***ing knew. Sustainable are exactly that, whereas gas and oil most certainly are not. By all means use them in the short term but they should not be front and centre of any long term planning.

Oh and what exactly do you mean by de-industrialisation? If by that you mean the steel industry who’s future was screwed way back in the 80’s then that’s not a new thing but something that dear old thatcher did when she f***ed over british industry. TBF it needed overhauling but she tried to kill it Rather than fix it. Apparently service industry was the was to go.
A quick note for you. Apart from spending 6 or so years traveling and getting pissed at the tax payers expense I have spent my whole working life in high tech engineering and manufacturing. Despite what you may read in papers we are pretty bloody good at the clever stuff, especially in defence.
So what is this de-industrialisation that you talk off?

 

[cunning fergus]

Seeing as you continue to peddle this stat, let’s apply some critical thinking to it. Here’s the source:

View attachment 197072

It’s more accurate to say that between 48% and 59% would be willing to fight. The 11% are those who would fight regardless of the reason.

Public attitudes are generally supportive of Ukraine and recognise Putin for what he is. There’s no reason to think from this survey that the UK can’t increase its defensive capability.

The survey as a whole tells me that today’s young generation is more discerning, more sceptical and think more critically than past generations. Those are all positives. It gives me cause for hope, not despair.

You’re wrong, public attitudes to Ukraine are supportive UNTIL they are expected to foot the bill in money let alone blood.

If you think half of 18-27 year olds are going to happily toddle off to fight Russia in Ukraine at the command of Starmer (or Charlie) you are away with the fairies.

That’s before someone can answer question why 50% are fighting and half their generation isn’t……..

Get the that answer and you’ll understand why the will of this country to engage in the type of struggle Ukraine is engaged in with Russia is for the birds.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

It may be that all of it was orchestrated, planned and premeditated with a sequence of leak, threat, offer etc.

The meeting(s) with the Russians, without Ukraine.
The ridiculous lowball offer to Zelensky, which they knew he would reject.
The sidelining of Kellogg.
Calls for an election.
Rumours of regime change being discussed in the Oval Office.
And then, an improved offer....

It’s bullying. The tactics that Trump uses in business but which he thinks he can use in politics. The big issue with that is in business you get to live another day, the Ukrainians don’t have that option.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

You’re wrong, public attitudes to Ukraine are supportive UNTIL they are expected to foot the bill in money let alone blood.

If you think half of 18-27 year olds are going to happily toddle off to fight Russia in Ukraine at the command of Starmer (or Charlie) you are away with the fairies.

That’s before someone can answer question why 50% are fighting and half their generation isn’t……..

Get the that answer and you’ll understand why the will of this country to engage in the type of struggle Ukraine is engaged in with Russia is for the birds.

You are wrong as this is what the british arm forces do all the time. Iraq and Afghanistan To name two.

do you get some sort of perverted gratification running down the people of this country? TBF this happens with every generation when they become their parents …

 

[cunning fergus]

And like the Baltic states with electricity it’s slowly getting new supplies. That by the way is where sustainables come into play. Who f***ing knew. Sustainable are exactly that, whereas gas and oil most certainly are not. By all means use them in the short term but they should not be front and centre of any long term planning.

Oh and what exactly do you mean by de-industrialisation? If by that you mean the steel industry who’s future was screwed way back in the 80’s then that’s not a new thing but something that dear old thatcher did when she f***ed over british industry. TBF it needed overhauling but she tried to kill it Rather than fix it. Apparently service industry was the was to go.
A quick note for you. Apart from spending 6 or so years traveling and getting pissed at the tax payers expense I have spent my whole working life in high tech engineering and manufacturing. Despite what you may read in papers we are pretty bloody good at the clever stuff, especially in defence.
So what is this de-industrialisation that you talk off?

Do you think a country that is unable to produce steel independently is industrialised?

Do you think a country reliant on steel imports can sustain an arms industry capable of making it a top tier military nation?

Do you think the answer to both questions is yes?

Source: Reuters

https://search.app/t7CBgHKXvrD25AWcA

 

[Eric the meek]

Why do you think polling suggests only 11% would fight for U.K.?

By the way I wouldn’t lay that solely at the door of diversity, as c. 40% wouldn’t fight at all under any circumstances.

Fact is the past is a different country and we are no longer the country we once were.

Understanding that and how we got there (which includes understanding ALL the threats we face) is 100% relevant to this thread.

If you and your fellow travellers do understand that issue you’ll be in for a severe wake up call.

It’s like no one has learnt from Brexit…….

You certainly haven't learned from Brexit. But I'll tell you who did learn from it. Russia has learned from Brexit. It weaponises migration across Europe. It is you who needs a severe wake up call.

Immigrants are not our enemies. Russia is.

Now stop spamming this forum with your ignorance.

 

[SouthSaxon]

You’re wrong, public attitudes to Ukraine are supportive UNTIL they are expected to foot the bill in money let alone blood.

If you think half of 18-27 year olds are going to happily toddle off to fight Russia in Ukraine at the command of Starmer (or Charlie) you are away with the fairies.

That’s before someone can answer question why 50% are fighting and half their generation isn’t……..

Get the that answer and you’ll understand why the will of this country to engage in the type of struggle Ukraine is engaged in with Russia is for the birds.

I made no claims of my own about how many people would sign up to fight Russia tomorrow. I highlighted the obvious flaw in your interpretation of that survey.

You are focusing on one aspect of a far more complex answer, and using that in a simplistic way to repeat the same black-and-white argument, as though it were in any way definitive.

That is not how surveys and data, or people for that matter, work.

 

[cunning fergus]

You are wrong as this is what the british arm forces do all the time. Iraq and Afghanistan To name two.

do you get some sort of perverted gratification running down the people of this country? TBF this happens with every generation when they become their parents …

I’m not wrong I’m being realistic. We are a long way from the days when we had a British Army of the Rhine. The Russian Army is 1.3m strong and unified in purpose and objective (as terrible as that may be).

Iraq and Afghanistan are not even hors d’ouvres to what our troops would face in a conventional military confrontation with Russia.

I guess the troops would still face legal challenges from greedy lawyers over here on behalf of Russian casualties but that’s the only similarity.

And there it is, another reason why in a bloody war like it would be with Russia you need to be prepared for gloves off and we are not close to that mindset in this country.

You could argue it’s a good thing, but not when you’re facing a ruthless enemy.

 

[fly high]

You certainly haven't learned from Brexit. But I'll tell you who did learn from it. Russia has learned from Brexit. It weaponises migration across Europe. It is you who needs a severe wake up call.

Immigrants are not our enemies. Russia is.

Now stop spamming this forum with your ignorance.

Best way to stop this trolling twat is just put him on ignore. He will not change his fascist views what ever facts you give him. Give him oxygen & he'll keep trolling. Ignore & he 'dies'.

 

[cunning fergus]

You certainly haven't learned from Brexit. But I'll tell you who did learn from it. Russia has learned from Brexit. It weaponises migration across Europe. It is you who needs a severe wake up call.

Immigrants are not our enemies. Russia is.

Now stop spamming this forum with your ignorance.

You haven’t learned.

I would wager £100 more British people have been murdered, raped and assaulted in this country by foreign immigrants than by the Russian state?

If you don’t think that fact (hard as it maybe to digest) isn’t a factor in the political map for Starmer to navigate on with Ukrainian policy you are an absolute fool.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Do you think a country that is unable to produce steel independently is industrialised?

Do you think a country reliant on steel imports can sustain an arms industry capable of making it a top tier military nation?

Do you think the answer to both questions is yes?

Source: Reuters

https://search.app/t7CBgHKXvrD25AWcA

We have been importing steel since the 80‘s so I’m not sure what point are you trying to make is this is 40 year old problem. The only reason we are it self sufficient is that making steel in country is too expensive, not be cause we can’t and that is the key point. Having agreements with other countries tries on supply is key which is why countries have trading agreements and join protectionist trading blocks (EU anyone). It makes you less open to threats such as the orange bumble**** across the water.

Using your analogy then the US is not an industrialised country as it is not self sufficient on steel or the resources required to make it.

We are industrialised.