[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[fly high]

For sure, but I agree with Zelenskiy that it has to keep on being said, as it needs to be said again and again that Putin murdered tens of thousands and abducted thousands of kids, plus other horrendous war crimes.
Maybe it'll turn some key people's minds in favour of Ukraine

Seems there are even some on this board who want to stop giving money to Ukraine so yes needs to be said many times.

 

[Eric the meek]

Interesting programme on BBC2 yesterday, The Balkans: Europe’s Forgotten Frontier with Katya Adler. There's still unwavering support for Putin amongst some in Bosnia.
It's on iPlayer

I've just watched it - very educational. I remember the Balkan wars of the 1990s as being the most brutal, certainly in my living memory at that stage.

Bosnia is a beautiful country, but thirty years later, as the poor lady at Srebenica said, the war is still not over. An independent commissioner is needed to keep the peace, while a school in Jajce segregates the Bosniak Muslims and the Bosnian Croats. The Putin angels, Bosnian Serb supporters of Putin, were quite an eye-opener. A very good reason why Putin needs to fail spectacularly.

Thanks for giving the heads up on the programme. I thoroughly recommend it. There are two episodes.

 

[Sirnormangall]

Russia has a lot of enemies. A lot.

Dozens of countries would have an interest in turning a blind eye or supporting this sort of skullduggery.

Ideally, they’d be hitting all their enemies with cyber attacks, cut cables, funding for far right or Putin sympathiser groups but they clearly don’t have the money or resource to achieve much outside of their evil war.

Ones does wonder if there are any secret British agents actively disrupting the Russian war effort? For example, the fire on the Russian spy vessel in the Mediterranean. This would surely be seen as an act of war if traced back to a particular government/country but I hope we have our best people indirectly masterminding some of these hits.

I don’t think British (western) agents would be directly involved but I would think it very likely that western agencies are feeding relevant intelligence to Ukraine: targets, co-ordinates etc

 

[Eric the meek]

I don’t think British (western) agents would be directly involved but I would think it very likely that western agencies are feeding relevant intelligence to Ukraine: targets, co-ordinates etc

My thoughts exactly. We aren't going to give Ukraine Storm Shadow missiles, without giving them help on where to deploy them.

(We may actually be in charge of the targeting, but we don't want to talk about that).

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

I'm starting to feel more concerned about Trump's potential effect on the Ukraine war after he was reported today as saying that Putin wanted to stop the dying, which is patently bullshit. It echoes what he said about his own views during the campaign when he refused to say who he wanted to win the war. He said he just wanted to stop the dying.

So either he's even more of an imbecile than any of us realised or he is trying to humanise Putin and make people believe he is a good faith actor in any peace negotiation.

 

[raymondo]

My thoughts exactly. We aren't going to give Ukraine Storm Shadow missiles, without giving them help on where to deploy them.

(We may actually be in charge of the targeting, but we don't want to talk about that).

I think at least some of the targets are in the Yellow Pages ...for the drone strikes that's a cert.

 

[raymondo]

I'm starting to feel more concerned about Trump's potential effect on the Ukraine war after he was reported today as saying that Putin wanted to stop the dying, which is patently bullshit. It echoes what he said about his own views during the campaign when he refused to say who he wanted to win the war. He said he just wanted to stop the dying.

So either he's even more of an imbecile than any of us realised or he is trying to humanise Putin and make people believe he is a good faith actor in any peace negotiation.

A lot of the things Trump says are extremely concerning, ...and frequently contradictory, and often a crock of shit.
Europe has to be strong and consistent in it's support of Ukraine

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm starting to feel more concerned about Trump's potential effect on the Ukraine war after he was reported today as saying that Putin wanted to stop the dying, which is patently bullshit. It echoes what he said about his own views during the campaign when he refused to say who he wanted to win the war. He said he just wanted to stop the dying.

Meh. If Putin wants to stop the dying, all he has to do is order his troops to withdraw from Ukraine.

And if Putin is saying that, then he's aware that he's losing, which is no bad thing.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Meh. If Putin wants to stop the dying, all he has to do is order his troops to withdraw from Ukraine.

And if Putin is saying that, then he's aware that he's losing, which is no bad thing.

True, but I don't believe for a moment that he is saying that. Before the US election I always assumed that if elected, Trump would try to dig Putin out of a hole. This sounds (to me at least) like the beginning of that process.

 

[Triggaaar]

True, but I don't believe for a moment that he is saying that. Before the US election I always assumed that if elected, Trump would try to dig Putin out of a hole. This sounds (to me at least) like the beginning of that process.

And what does 'dig him out of a hole' mean?

He wants to say nice things about Putin and say that he believes he'll be able to do a deal and end the war, but he'll probably also talk about how things will be bad for Russia if they don't accept a deal. None of that talk harms Ukraine.

I trust Trump and Putin to be self-serving and spare no thought for how many people die on any side. But I also trust logic. If a bad deal is put forward, Ukraine won't accept it because Ukraine don't have to accept it.

Russian propaganda will be pushing the narrative that a deal is ready, ends the war etc etc. Don't fall for it. Zelenskyy won't fall for it, and they'll make the US aware of that.

I don't expect the war to be ending any time soon.

 

[Eric the meek]

Putin has no intention of stopping.

Focus on what he does. Not what he says.

And what he is doing is, digging in for a long war.

 

[raymondo]

Putin has no intention of stopping.

Focus on what he does. Not what he says.

And what he is doing is, digging in for a long war.

Good analysis from the Swiss, now can they stop much of it?

 

[Eric the meek]

Good analysis from the Swiss, now can they stop much of it?

My gut reaction is that it is sickening. Turkey eh? Christ. Serbia (to be expected), India (to be expected), China (probably unavoidable), Central Asian Republics (difficult to police?). The cold hard truth may be that much of it cannot be prevented.

 

[raymondo]

More good work from Ukrainian branch of "just stop oil,"

 

[raymondo]

My gut reaction is that it is sickening. Turkey eh? Christ. Serbia (to be expected), India (to be expected), China (probably unavoidable), Central Asian Republics (difficult to police?). The cold hard truth may be that much of it cannot be prevented.

Yes, it's become unsurprising to see Turkey in these lists.
It's a big country, also very hard to police in some areas, so it's possible the 'antics' are not government sanctioned I suppose.
In a way it's little different from the huge spike seen in exports of vans and trucks (from the UK and EU) to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia...seen starting the week after such exports were banned to Russia.

But yes, Turkey are tough allies - I'm still happy they're in NATO though.

 

[raymondo]

This is ok, surely,. Step up to the plate Europe, sort out our regional defense. We cannot rely on the US (and possibly that means NATO now?). Same message was given by Mike Walz.

 

[raymondo]

Go to 7 mins of Jake's video to see one of Ukraine's underground drone manufacturing facilities... Zelenskiy hosting a NATO military guy there.

 

[raymondo]

A lovely sight

 

[raymondo]

Enjoy watching the actual disconnection from the Russian grid - 2nd vid down I think

 

[Eric the meek]

Enjoy watching the actual disconnection from the Russian grid - 2nd vid down I think

This is a valuable lesson for Russia, which it seems determined not to learn.

If you weaponise your energy, and use it to make threats and blackmail your customers, then they will go elsewhere and you will end up with a 2000km western border of 'unfriendly' countries. If you also invade one of your neighbours, another, previously neutral, country may join NATO and make it 3000km of unfriendly countries.