[Misc] Rise in holocaust denial.

[beorhthelm]

Yes I know that's what it is according to them, but Bev hasn't ever considered himself Jewish, so I'm wondering why he'd now consider himself Jewish when 3/4 of his grandparents aren't.

it doesnt matter if he does or not consider himself Jewish, the rules of the said authority say it is so. analogies to football nations apply, he's eligible to play.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

That's only if it's your grandmother on your mother's side.

Also, their tradition doesn't make it so. What happens when you have several religious traditions that say you're one of them if one of you great-grandparents was? Suddenly you're Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc.[/QUOTE

She was my maternal grandmother. My mum only told me a couple of years back that I’m a Jew. I think I would have been classed as a Jew by the SS so that’s good enough for me.]

 

[BrickTamland]

That's only if it's your grandmother on your mother's side.

Also, their tradition doesn't make it so. What happens when you have several religious traditions that say you're one of them if one of you great-grandparents was? Suddenly you're Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc.[/QUOTE

She was my maternal grandmother. My mum only told me a couple of years back that I’m a Jew. I think I would have been classed as a Jew by the SS so that’s good enough for me.]

Think if you only had one you'd be a 'mischlinge' (certainly not how it is correctly spelt!) which was slightly more ambiguous and could have led to survival.

 

[Triggaaar]

it doesnt matter if he does or not consider himself Jewish, the rules of the said authority say it is so

Re Bev H, he considers himself Jewish, so that's cool obviously. But as for authorities and what they say - you could have one authority stating that a person is one thing, another authority stating they're another, etc etc. What a load of nonsense.

 

[The Clamp]

Re Bev H, he considers himself Jewish, so that's cool obviously. But as for authorities and what they say - you could have one authority stating that a person is one thing, another authority stating they're another, etc etc. What a load of nonsense.

Agreed, it is nonsense. He clearly has a legit claim to being Jewish, anything else it arbitrary.

 

[ManOfSussex]

They certainly killed people there but as you know from your visit, much more was also going on - forced labour, torture, illegal experiments. Whereas Birkenau was where the majority of arrivals were herded straight off the trains into the gas chambers. Anyway, let's not quibble about where parts of the Holocaust happened. It did, and that's enough.

I agree, but whatever happened to anyone sent to Auschwitz, nobody was ever sent there with the intention of them ever leaving it alive, hence my view on the term 'death camp'. If I recall correctly the gas chamber I walked through had the capacity to kill less than 1000 people a day, hence Birkenau happened. Auschwitz itself as a place evolved during the war too from being for primarily only Polish prisoners initially for example also. I don't know if you've been, but some of the blocks are basically exhibition sites/museums to each country/ethnic group/religion killed there. There's a Roma gypsy one as well as a Jewish one, for example. One of the experiments I recall was a Polish catholic priest sentenced to starve to death so they could observe how long it would take. Incomprehensible.

I never know what word to use to describe the experience of walking round there that afternoon. Maybe there isn't one.

 

[rippleman]

Is it the education system though? I was educated 60s / 70s and WW2 / the Holocaust was never covered. However, I was aware of the holocaust from a fairly early age. Whether that was because my father and his brothers all served in WW2 I really don't know. So I can't recall how I knew, I just did.

I have read books and documentaries in the intervening years. Sometimes you just have to take responsibility to educate yourself.

As to whether 6m were murdered by the Nazis or not that figure has always been disputed. It could have been less, it might have been more. Not all Jews were killed in the camps, and not all those killed in the camps were Jews (partisans, Russian POWs, gypsys, communists, mentally ill etc). But I'm not sure the precise number really matters does it?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Is it the education system though? I was educated 60s / 70s and WW2 / the Holocaust was never covered. However, I was aware of the holocaust from a fairly early age. Whether that was because my father and his brothers all served in WW2 I really don't know. So I can't recall how I knew, I just did.

I have read books and documentaries in the intervening years. Sometimes you just have to take responsibility to educate yourself.

As to whether 6m were murdered by the Nazis or not that figure has always been disputed. It could have been less, it might have been more. Not all Jews were killed in the camps, and not all those killed in the camps were Jews (partisans, Russian POWs, gypsys, communists, mentally ill etc). But I'm not sure the precise number really matters does it?

The numbers were collated and mentioned in the trials at Nuremburg. They've already been quoted by me twice in this thread.

 

[rippleman]

I'm not wanting to cause offence here, and you can obviously choose your religion, but if 3 of your grandparents were not Jewish, and 1 was, how does that make you Jewish?

The Nazis used the "Mischling Test". If you had one Jewish grandparent you were a second degree Mischling (two and you were a first degree MIshling). If you had one Jewish grandparent you were classified as "non-Aryan" and had some restrictions imposed.

The Nazi race laws were quite complex and evolved over time. Way too much to go into here.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Think if you only had one you'd be a 'mischlinge' (certainly not how it is correctly spelt!) which was slightly more ambiguous and could have led to survival.

It didn't in Holland where a case of a woman who was born Jewish, but appeared blond with blue eyes. She also had become a Christian, but the Nazis caught up with her because a neigbour betrayed her. It's in The Hidinig Place, the book I mentioned previously in this thread.

 

[rippleman]

The numbers were collated and mentioned in the trials at Nuremburg. They've already been quoted by me twice in this thread.

Indeed they were. But at the time of the trials there were a best estimate; nobody will ever know for certain EXACTLY how many were killed. Other evidence and documents did not emerge until after the trials. Some of the Einsatzgruppen records and some of the death camp records were destroyed before the Allies got to them.

Yes, we have a best estimate of 6m but as I said, does it really matter exactly how many were murdered? The Holocaust happened and it should never be forgotten.

 

[Boys 9d]

I sometimes wonder how many Holocaust believers think that only Jewish people were murdered and are unaware of the other groups who were affected. There always seems to me that in most public debates (thankfully not on this Forum) others are forgotten. There are many Memorials to Jewish victims around the world but I have yet to hear of one for Roma people for example. This saddens me. Is this lack because of numbers affected or is it a matter of Politics or even prejudice?

One instance of Genocide not mentioned here (unless I missed it) is the mass killing of Armenians by the Ottamans just over 100 years ago. I have deliberately not said Turks as other groups (such as the Kurds) from that Empire were also involved.

 

[BrickTamland]

I sometimes wonder how many Holocaust believers think that only Jewish people were murdered and are unaware of the other groups who were affected. There always seems to me that in most public debates (thankfully not on this Forum) others are forgotten. There are many Memorials to Jewish victims around the world but I have yet to hear of one for Roma people for example. This saddens me. Is this lack because of numbers affected or is it a matter of Politics or even prejudice?

One instance of Genocide not mentioned here (unless I missed it) is the mass killing of Armenians by the Ottamans just over 100 years ago. I have deliberately not said Turks as other groups (such as the Kurds) from that Empire were also involved.

Unfortunately other groups have been sidelined. For example the Holocaust Museum in Washington (the largest and most influential) only recently started accepting exhibits about groups such as the Roma and Sinti. There were many quite heated debates in the 90's concerning the 'uniqueness' of both the Holocaust and the Jewish experience. The problem is that group trauma shapes identity and when one tries to suggest others shared that trauma (or that it wasn't particular to that group) it can be misconstrued as an attack against that identity itself. The case of Armenia is an example of a diaspora community shaped by trauma.

Some of the literature regarding Holocaust uniqueness (in comparison to other cases of genocide and mass murder) is very interesting and highlights how politicised the debate has become.

 

[ozzygull]

I was in Assen in the Netherlands with my Husband and Daughter as she races in the Junior European Cycling tour they have once a year. While there we visited Westerbork Transit Camp

https://www.kampwesterbork.nl/en/index.html#/index

They would send the Jewish in the Netherlands there before shipping them off to Auschwitz, Anne Frank was sent from there. They were treated relatively well in that camp so they would write letters back to their friends and family's telling them it was fine and they should hand themselves in, unwittingly tricking them. Once they had done that they were sent to their deaths.

 

[symyjym]

The British empire went on a bit beyond the days of galleons on the high seas.

Ok, lets talk about our next door neighbour Ireland which had a population of 8M people when the potato famine started. The British insisted they exported the good produce and did nothing to help their colony. Millions died or were forced to emigrate to America, or if they did a petty crime were sent to the out door prison Australia.

Even today the population of Ireland is 5M and we all know the problems of British imperial rule in the North of the island which exist to this day. Just one example.

As I said; this was in the days of ignorance. The potato famine was the result of inconsiderate bad behaviour and greed, not the deliberate genocide of a group of people like in the Holocaust. I am not undermining the PF.

Pre photography, film and especially now with the instant communication of what is happening thousands of miles away with consequences of decisions and actions being seen before our eyes as it happens, is a long way from those times of the British Empire and the Potato Famine. We don't even try to hide our history, it is very well documented, but what Nazi Germany did was off the scale of human depravity which is only matched by some extremist groups today.

To me the Holocaust represents all historic atrocities, and exposes the worst of mankind and how hundreds and thousands of fragile minds can be manipulated, because it was the first genocide to be recorded on film. The message isn't about what happened to the Jews, the message is about mankind's mental instability as Blair has proved much more recently and the warmongering Cameron has done too.

Personally I think we should remember the 21st March 2003.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

That's only if it's your grandmother on your mother's side.

Also, their tradition doesn't make it so. What happens when you have several religious traditions that say you're one of them if one of you great-grandparents was? Suddenly you're Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc.[/QUOTE

She was my maternal grandmother. My mum only told me a couple of years back that I’m a Jew. I think I would have been classed as a Jew by the SS so that’s good enough for me.]

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Indeed they were. But at the time of the trials there were a best estimate; nobody will ever know for certain EXACTLY how many were killed. Other evidence and documents did not emerge until after the trials. Some of the Einsatzgruppen records and some of the death camp records were destroyed before the Allies got to them.

Yes, we have a best estimate of 6m but as I said, does it really matter exactly how many were murdered? The Holocaust happened and it should never be forgotten.

Eleven million of which six million were Jews.

 

[The Clamp]

I sometimes wonder how many Holocaust believers think that only Jewish people were murdered and are unaware of the other groups who were affected. There always seems to me that in most public debates (thankfully not on this Forum) others are forgotten. There are many Memorials to Jewish victims around the world but I have yet to hear of one for Roma people for example. This saddens me. Is this lack because of numbers affected or is it a matter of Politics or even prejudice?

One instance of Genocide not mentioned here (unless I missed it) is the mass killing of Armenians by the Ottamans just over 100 years ago. I have deliberately not said Turks as other groups (such as the Kurds) from that Empire were also involved.

There are many memorials to all the people murdered by the Nazis in many locations across the globe. I don’t get the impression at all that people on this board only think of the Jews who were murdered.

 

[Bakero]

As I said; this was in the days of ignorance. The potato famine was the result of inconsiderate bad behaviour and greed, not the deliberate genocide of a group of people like in the Holocaust. I am not undermining the PF.

Pre photography, film and especially now with the instant communication of what is happening thousands of miles away with consequences of decisions and actions being seen before our eyes as it happens, is a long way from those times of the British Empire and the Potato Famine. We don't even try to hide our history, it is very well documented, but what Nazi Germany did was off the scale of human depravity which is only matched by some extremist groups today.

To me the Holocaust represents all historic atrocities, and exposes the worst of mankind and how hundreds and thousands of fragile minds can be manipulated, because it was the first genocide to be recorded on film. The message isn't about what happened to the Jews, the message is about mankind's mental instability as Blair has proved much more recently and the warmongering Cameron has done too.

Personally I think we should remember the 21st March 2003.

The days of ignorance? The Mau Mau rebellion was in the 50s.

 

[Yoda]

I sometimes wonder how many Holocaust believers think that only Jewish people were murdered and are unaware of the other groups who were affected. There always seems to me that in most public debates (thankfully not on this Forum) others are forgotten. There are many Memorials to Jewish victims around the world but I have yet to hear of one for Roma people for example. This saddens me. Is this lack because of numbers affected or is it a matter of Politics or even prejudice?

One instance of Genocide not mentioned here (unless I missed it) is the mass killing of Armenians by the Ottamans just over 100 years ago. I have deliberately not said Turks as other groups (such as the Kurds) from that Empire were also involved.

I expect the Nazi's didn't even keep any record of the number of Roma's (Gypsies for those that do not know) killed. They didn't even class them as humans and at an even lower level of contempt as the Jews.