[Misc] Rise in holocaust denial.

[Boys 9d]

There are many memorials to all the people murdered by the Nazis in many locations across the globe. I don’t get the impression at all that people on this board only think of the Jews who were murdered.

I agree that there are many memorials to localised Nazi crimes. Orandour-sur Glane in France and Lidice in the Czech Republic come to mind plus many road side memorials for Resistance fighters in France. However my concern is the dearth of recognition for non-Jewish victims on National Memorials and in Museums for the Holocaust. Perhaps you can relieve my doubts by quoting Memorials where these groups are remembered? Incidentally, I pointed out that contributors to this Forum did recognise these other groups.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Time to move on and forgive and forget, no need to keep holding ‘remberance’ each year in my opinion, same with Poppy Day etc, always come ms across to me as attention seeking. How can we all try to get on in the world if each year we celebrate death and murder. Forgive, forget, move on.

Are you serious?

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

Like the two others I have since meet and talked with quite openly, they have developed these theories by watching one source, You Tube.

And here we have a large part of the problem. Other people have mentioned the education system and what people are taught. These days, kids seem to be watching You Tube videos but don't have the skills to analyse the validity of the programs and their claims. Anyone can spout any old nonsense on their and certain like minded people will share it. Like Twitter, it just becomes an echo chamber of like minded voices which allow dangerous material like holocaust denial material to proliferate.

 

[Triggaaar]

The Nazis used the "Mischling Test". If you had one Jewish grandparent you were a second degree Mischling (two and you were a first degree MIshling). If you had one Jewish grandparent you were classified as "non-Aryan" and had some restrictions imposed.

The Nazi race laws were quite complex and evolved over time. Way too much to go into here.

Who the Nazis though were Aryans is a bit of a joke anyway.

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

I started my working career in market research and I know just how much effort goes into delivering accurate results. So, yes, I can well believe this survey.

My issue isn't so much with the statistics, its the conclusions drawn from it. It states 1/12 believe the number to be exaggerated. Is that a conclusion drawn from the fact that peoples guesses of the number of victims was wrong? If so, i'd suggest that's an erroneous conclusion. If someone has an honest held belief that only 2 million people were killed, they are just wrong, not antisemitic.

 

[symyjym]

The days of ignorance? The Mau Mau rebellion was in the 50s.

I don't know much about this but I can see that the Mau Mau used to attack their own civilians and committed war crimes themselves so I'm not sure if they were the "good" guys. Before we colonised Kenya it was the Arabs and before them the Persians also. I am pretty sure that Britain had no ulterior plan to commit genocide in any of its colonies. Hitler did have an intention of genocide though.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I agree, but whatever happened to anyone sent to Auschwitz, nobody was ever sent there with the intention of them ever leaving it alive, hence my view on the term 'death camp'. If I recall correctly the gas chamber I walked through had the capacity to kill less than 1000 people a day, hence Birkenau happened. Auschwitz itself as a place evolved during the war too from being for primarily only Polish prisoners initially for example also. I don't know if you've been, but some of the blocks are basically exhibition sites/museums to each country/ethnic group/religion killed there. There's a Roma gypsy one as well as a Jewish one, for example. One of the experiments I recall was a Polish catholic priest sentenced to starve to death so they could observe how long it would take. Incomprehensible.

I never know what word to use to describe the experience of walking round there that afternoon. Maybe there isn't one.

What really got me was the prison block with the wall outside where polish political prisoners were shot upagainst. Did you go to the basement cells with the cages they kept people in? Just horrific!

For those who have never been, as part of the " tour" you are shown into a room where a film is running showing the films made by the Russian liberators of what was left of people who were not taken on teh long march. It is so harrowing that I find it very difficult to describe it.

What really made me so angry was we were shown into the gas chamber and we had to walk though the chamber, out to the place where the devices for loading the bodies into the ovens. Those had makers badges on them you would recognise on the high street today....but what really got me was two complete shits who were sat on the machines they loaded the bodies on and were taking pictures of each other. I said to one of them " show some ****ing respect" and he just laughed and said..this is all fake anyway! I was so shocked I just waked back into the gas chamber and sat in the middle of it next to a single white rose that was left in the middle.

I cannot believe there are people who do not think this actually happened, or are that stupid they won't accept things in front of their own eyes.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I don't know much about this but I can see that the Mau Mau used to attack their own civilians and committed war crimes themselves so I'm not sure if they were the "good" guys. Before we colonised Kenya it was the Arabs and before them the Persians also. I am pretty sure that Britain had no ulterior plan to commit genocide in any of its colonies. Hitler did have an intention of genocide though.

the romans committed the first actual recorded genocide when at the end of the Punic war ( third) they marched into Carthage and massacred every man, woman, child, animal and plant. Completely razed every building using slaves to do so and then massacred them all and buried them under the rubble. They then flattened the whole area for many years making sure nothing grew.

What they did in Spain and the mines ther was truly horrific. They were horrible ******** really.

 

[LlcoolJ]

What really got me was the prison block with the wall outside where polish political prisoners were shot upagainst. Did you go to the basement cells with the cages they kept people in? Just horrific!

For those who have never been, as part of the " tour" you are shown into a room where a film is running showing the films made by the Russian liberators of what was left of people who were not taken on teh long march. It is so harrowing that I find it very difficult to describe it.

What really made me so angry was we were shown into the gas chamber and we had to walk though the chamber, out to the place where the devices for loading the bodies into the ovens. Those had makers badges on them you would recognise on the high street today....but what really got me was two complete shits who were sat on the machines they loaded the bodies on and were taking pictures of each other. I said to one of them " show some ****ing respect" and he just laughed and said..this is all fake anyway! I was so shocked I just waked back into the gas chamber and sat in the middle of it next to a single white rose that was left in the middle.

I cannot believe there are people who do not think this actually happened, or are that stupid they won't accept things in front of their own eyes.

Bloody hell. I worked with a woman recently who had just been on the tour. She's a pretty hardy soul but it really affected her deeply.

I've visited Dachau (we were in Munich for the World Cup and it seemed right to go while so near) but I'm not sure I could cope with Auschwitz, from what she told me.

I find it mind blowing that anyone could act like that.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

What really got me was the prison block with the wall outside where polish political prisoners were shot upagainst. Did you go to the basement cells with the cages they kept people in? Just horrific!

For those who have never been, as part of the " tour" you are shown into a room where a film is running showing the films made by the Russian liberators of what was left of people who were not taken on teh long march. It is so harrowing that I find it very difficult to describe it.

What really made me so angry was we were shown into the gas chamber and we had to walk though the chamber, out to the place where the devices for loading the bodies into the ovens. Those had makers badges on them you would recognise on the high street today....but what really got me was two complete shits who were sat on the machines they loaded the bodies on and were taking pictures of each other. I said to one of them " show some ****ing respect" and he just laughed and said..this is all fake anyway! I was so shocked I just waked back into the gas chamber and sat in the middle of it next to a single white rose that was left in the middle.

I cannot believe there are people who do not think this actually happened, or are that stupid they won't accept things in front of their own eyes.

I genuinely think I'd have come to blows, if I'd had that encounter when I was there.

I was there (early 90s) with a group of students from my Uni. One of the girls left the group and went back to the coach in tears. When we got back on she was an absolute wreck, and her mates were looking after her. We found out later that her grandfather had been one of the British troops who liberated Belsen, and had never recovered from what he'd experienced - suffering terrible mental health issues for many years.

 

[spence]

What really got me was the prison block with the wall outside where polish political prisoners were shot upagainst. Did you go to the basement cells with the cages they kept people in? Just horrific!

For those who have never been, as part of the " tour" you are shown into a room where a film is running showing the films made by the Russian liberators of what was left of people who were not taken on teh long march. It is so harrowing that I find it very difficult to describe it.

What really made me so angry was we were shown into the gas chamber and we had to walk though the chamber, out to the place where the devices for loading the bodies into the ovens. Those had makers badges on them you would recognise on the high street today....but what really got me was two complete shits who were sat on the machines they loaded the bodies on and were taking pictures of each other. I said to one of them " show some ****ing respect" and he just laughed and said..this is all fake anyway! I was so shocked I just waked back into the gas chamber and sat in the middle of it next to a single white rose that was left in the middle.

I cannot believe there are people who do not think this actually happened, or are that stupid they won't accept things in front of their own eyes.

If you ever get the chance of going to Prague then make Trerezin a priority. Loved it more than Auschwitz. Maybe because most of it was original.

 

[spence]

Bloody hell. I worked with a woman recently who had just been on the tour. She's a pretty hardy soul but it really affected her deeply.

I've visited Dachau (we were in Munich for the World Cup and it seemed right to go while so near) but I'm not sure I could cope with Auschwitz, from what she told me.

I find it mind blowing that anyone could act like that.

Just go and see it.

I would go every day simply because i love that sort of history.

 

[ManOfSussex]

What really got me was the prison block with the wall outside where polish political prisoners were shot upagainst. Did you go to the basement cells with the cages they kept people in? Just horrific!

For those who have never been, as part of the " tour" you are shown into a room where a film is running showing the films made by the Russian liberators of what was left of people who were not taken on teh long march. It is so harrowing that I find it very difficult to describe it.

What really made me so angry was we were shown into the gas chamber and we had to walk though the chamber, out to the place where the devices for loading the bodies into the ovens. Those had makers badges on them you would recognise on the high street today....but what really got me was two complete shits who were sat on the machines they loaded the bodies on and were taking pictures of each other. I said to one of them " show some ****ing respect" and he just laughed and said..this is all fake anyway! I was so shocked I just waked back into the gas chamber and sat in the middle of it next to a single white rose that was left in the middle.

I cannot believe there are people who do not think this actually happened, or are that stupid they won't accept things in front of their own eyes.

As you come into the gas chamber there was a sign up in the 3 languages - Polish, Hebrew and English - asking for silence to be observed etc and there were 2 middle aged Polish women talking as they walked round. That really made me angry.

I remember the basement of the prison block. I also will always remember walking through the Jewish building and there was a seated area and a hymn/chant in Hebrew was playing and it was full of Jewish visitors crying. I just stared down at my feet and walked through. I felt numb. Another thing that struck us was when we passed a German couple in their 30's who were whispering to each other as they walked around - they obviously didn't want anyone to hear their language.

The film was incredible. It's shown every 20 minutes in English, Polish and Hebrew. I think some of the footage is unique to Auschwitz - it's never been shown on TV or elsewhere.

 

[ozzygull]

As you come into the gas chamber there was a sign up in the 3 languages - Polish, Hebrew and English - asking for silence to be observed etc and there were 2 middle aged Polish women taking as they walked round. That really made me angry.

I remember the basement of the prison block. I also will always remember walking through the Jewish building and there was a seated area and a hymn/chant in Hebrew was playing and it was full of Jewish visitors crying. I just stared down at my feet and walked through. I felt numb. Another thing that struck us was when we passed a German couple in their 30's who were whispering to each other as they walked around - they obviously didn't want anyone to hear their language.

The film was incredible. It's shown every 20 minutes in English, Polish and Hebrew. I think some of the footage is unique to Auschwitz - it's never been shown on TV or elsewhere.

That's a shame they felt like that. No one can be responsible for things that happened before they were born, the fact they were there learning about the past should be encouraged.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I used to work for a company that did vanity publishing and a lot of the books they " published" were war diaries and of course , books on the holocaust.

One afternoon, I was asked to go through old paperwork, manuscripts etc and chuck them out. I came accross a file full of paperwork for a woman who after the war used to play her violin in the name of peace. She had lots of awards from Popes, presidents and prime ministers..fantastic woman.

She had 5 children....all of them died in auschwitz along with her husband and most of her family. She managed to get out of Vienna and came to England to arrange for her children to come here. She never saw them again( their was a great discussion of if she should have left them) ..anyway, in the folder I went through papers and came accross two post cards. The first one was from a son in Vienna saying they were going to stay with their uncle in holland. The second one was one of the most amazing piece of paper I will ever hold. It was written by her daughter in a cattle truck on its way to a camp somewhere...it was auschwitz. She said how she was worried for her siblings as they were scared .....she ended it by saying ' I will look after them' and then expressing her love for her family and her mother. That was the last time she had contact with her family.

I sent the paperwork to the local synagogue in Brighton as there was no family left to take them.

Just horrible.

 

[symyjym]

the romans committed the first actual recorded genocide when at the end of the Punic war ( third) they marched into Carthage and massacred every man, woman, child, animal and plant. Completely razed every building using slaves to do so and then massacred them all and buried them under the rubble. They then flattened the whole area for many years making sure nothing grew.

What they did in Spain and the mines ther was truly horrific. They were horrible ******** really.

Actually God commanded and committed a few genocides himself. Moses was ordered to slaughter the Amalekite tribe. If one is a Christian who believes that Jesus is God then Jesus committed genocide too. Maybe humans will never learn.

 

[Boys 9d]

Don't forget Joshua wiping out the population of Jericho!

 

[The Clamp]

That's a shame they felt like that. No one can be responsible for things that happened before they were born, the fact they were there learning about the past should be encouraged.

I doubt they were hiding their accent. More likely they were talking in hushed tones out of reverence.

 

[daveinplzen]

If you ever get the chance of going to Prague then make Trerezin a priority. Loved it more than Auschwitz. Maybe because most of it was original.

Did not visit for a long time. When I did go, one of the first things I saw was my mothers family name (Feiler - Tomas & Stella) on the memorial there and that brings it right home. The main reason I avoided visiting for so long. How the poor feckers felt going down the tunnel to the execution mound is incomprehensible. That is a long tunnel, even more so if you know whats at the end of it.
Gavril Princip who assassinated Ferdinand and managed to start WW1 died there as well in 1918.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Did not visit for a long time. When I did go, one of the first things I saw was my mothers family name (Feiler - Tomas & Stella) on the memorial there and that brings it right home. The main reason I avoided visiting for so long. How the poor feckers felt going down the tunnel to the execution mound is incomprehensible. That is a long tunnel, even more so if you know whats at the end of it.
Gavril Princip who assassinated Ferdinand and managed to start WW1 died there as well in 1918.

Look at those dates of births.