Richard Dawkins to arrest Pope Benedict.!!!!!

[Acker79]

On the plus side, they've forgiven the beatles

Vatican forgives The Beatles for 'bigger than Jesus' comment - Telegraph

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Although, of course, Hitler was brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school.

And there were plenty of priests who supported Hitler

There were Englishmen who supported Hitler too.

I'm sure every large group of people of the time had supporters of him amongst their numbers.

The Nazis killed thousands of catholic clergy during the war, but that doesnt seem to matter to a one sided discussion.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Do the letters I, R and A mean anything to you?

The I.R.A means nothing in the context of a world issue.

It's a local regional issue.

You should know that the I.R.A has had Catholic AND protestant members amongst its ranks.

 

[Gwylan]

There were Englishmen who supported Hitler too.

I'm sure every large group of people of the time had supporters of him amongst their numbers.

The Nazis killed thousands of catholic clergy during the war, but that doesnt seem to matter to a one sided discussion.

For sure, there were plenty of people in England who supported Hitler but that's not the point.

It's not that some Catholics supported Hitler and the Nazis, it's just that the two weren't entwined in the way that other religious groups were.

When Hitler said “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
he didn't say Christian or atheist but specifically Catholic and in his new year message of 1937, he said:

"“While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.”

There were some priests who stood against Hitler but when you think of groups persecuted by Nazis, Catholics aren't exactly the first group that springs to mind.

 

[magoo]

And the problem is, as has been said before, there's no proof of this is there ? We all have our suspicions but that is not fact.

I said alleged...

If something is alleged it has to investigated.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It's not a sweeping statement it's a fact. Whilst individual priests and other religious people did die at the hands of the Nazis the Vatican kept a very low profile about the Holocast and other attrocities.

Individual?

Thousands is a bit more than individual.

What exactly were the Vatican to do when they themselves were surrounded by a facist regime in Mussolini?

They actually hid and helped many, many jews escape from under the nazis noses.

They even made a film about the work of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty in his attempts to save jews.

Hugh O'Flaherty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What would benefit the jews the most, the Pope speaking out or many of his clergy and parishoners working to see the jewish people either escaped or were hidden?

 

[bhaexpress]

I said alleged...

If something is alleged it has to investigated.

And as I said, heresay in not sufficient.

 

[bhaexpress]

Individual?

Thousands is a bit more than individual.

What exactly were the Vatican to do when they themselves were surrounded by a facist regime in Mussolini?

They actually hid and helped many, many jews escape from under the nazis noses.

They even made a film about the work of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty in his attempts to save jews.

Hugh O'Flaherty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What would benefit the jews the most, the Pope speaking out or many of his clergy and parishoners working to see the jewish people either escaped or were hidden?

If they had the courage of their convictions but clearly they knew which side their bread was buttered, for one thing they didn't want the Nazi's plundering their vast wealth. I am talking a THE VATICAN here not those individuals of all faiths and beliefs that did die. The Vatican as the Head of the Catholic Church has a lot of skeletons whichg you have to accept are indefensable. That's why of all the Christian sects they get the most abuse, not very surprising is it ?

 

[bhaexpress]

So this is "nothing other than supposition"? Did he not know what he was signing? Or what his responsibilities were?

The Pope was embroiled in new controversy this weekend over a letter he signed arguing that the “good of the universal church” should be considered against the defrocking of an American priest who committed sex offences against two boys. It was dated 1985, when he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which deals with sex abuse cases.

You'll find that all he did was rubber stamp the document. I am not condoning his action I assure you.

 

[bhaexpress]

Do the letters I, R and A mean anything to you?

What exactly has that got to do with anything ? The vast majority of Catholics wanted nothing to do with the IRA. Also, have you actually figured out why they existed in the first place ? Maybe you think that all muslems are part of Al Kyida.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

For sure, there were plenty of people in England who supported Hitler but that's not the point.

It's not that some Catholics supported Hitler and the Nazis, it's just that the two weren't entwined in the way that other religious groups were.

When Hitler said “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
he didn't say Christian or atheist but specifically Catholic and in his new year message of 1937, he said:

"“While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.”

There were some priests who stood against Hitler but when you think of groups persecuted by Nazis, Catholics aren't exactly the first group that springs to mind.

Catholic means universal, he said Catholic, Not Roman Catholic.

Protestants are Catholics too.

Here's a part of a speech he made to refute what you've listed.

Adolf Hitler himself was indeed a true (spiritual) son of Luther and in many ways was only being logical to the principles set forth by Luther in his approach to things. Hitler himself declared the reality of this point in one of his speeches saying: “I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later – once we hold power – Christianity will be overcome and the German Church established. Yes, the German church, without a Pope and without the bible, and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.” - ( Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speeches, edited by Prof. N.H. Baynes [oxford, 1942], pg. 369).

Sounds nothing like a Roman Catholic there.

I think the Catholics of Poland/Czechoslovakia/France that were butchered would beg to differ when you say they weren't persecuted.

It was the Protestant nations of Europe who were the least persecuted.

Which comes back to my question, why bash the Catholics only over this and not the Lutheran Church?

Because greater numbers of them voted Hitler in than Catholics did.

16 of the 21 Nazis who faced trial at Nuremberg stated their religion as "Protestant".

 

[bhaexpress]

Which comes back to my question, why bash the Catholics only over this and not the Lutheran Church?

To put is simply, two reasons, firstly the Catholic Church is much begger and secondly, the child abuse issue is very fresh in people's minds, unlike World War two. As the oldest established Christian Religion it has more skeletons in it's closet than any other. However, let he who is without sin etc.

 

[beorhthelm]

Individual?

Thousands is a bit more than individual.

What exactly were the Vatican to do when they themselves were surrounded by a facist regime in Mussolini?

They actually hid and helped many, many jews escape from under the nazis noses.

They even made a film about the work of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty in his attempts to save jews.

Hugh O'Flaherty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What would benefit the jews the most, the Pope speaking out or many of his clergy and parishoners working to see the jewish people either escaped or were hidden?

oh please, history tells us the Catholic church (or any other for that matter) has never lost sleep over the centuries of persecution of the Jews. i dont know why you are trying to rewrite history, the catholic church has previously acknowledged they lack of intervention, turning a blind eye, and sometimes assisting the Nazis. didnt the last pope even apologies for it? fair play to those that didnt, but there were more that did nothing or assisted than there were Hugh O'Flaherty types.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

If they had the courage of their convictions but clearly they knew which side their bread was buttered, for one thing they didn't want the Nazi's plundering their vast wealth. I am talking a THE VATICAN here not those individuals of all faiths and beliefs that did die. The Vatican as the Head of the Catholic Church has a lot of skeletons whichg you have to accept are indefensable. That's why of all the Christian sects they get the most abuse, not very surprising is it ?

If they had the courage of their convictions?

They had no armies to send to the rescue or any political power in Germany.

I'm just not sure what you are saying they should have done that would have made the slightest difference?

Neville Chamberlain's actions were far more damaging than anything the Pope at the time did.

Should the UK be derided in the same way over their lack of actions and policy of appeasement?

I don't think so, but it's the same argument.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

oh please, history tells us the Catholic church (or any other for that matter) has never lost sleep over the centuries of persecution of the Jews. i dont know why you are trying to rewrite history, the catholic church has previously acknowledged they lack of intervention, turning a blind eye, and sometimes assisting the Nazis. didnt the last pope even apologies for it? fair play to those that didnt, but there were more that did nothing or assisted than there were Hugh O'Flaherty types.

Do tell what they could do?

What is this intervention you speak of?

I wasn't aware the Vatican city had an army of 10 million soldiers at its disposal to send out to war with the Nazis.

So a priest goes out onto the street and berates the SS.

He gets hauled off and gets a bullet in his brain.

What exactly did that achieve?

 

[Fungus]

You'll find that all he did was rubber stamp the document. I am not condoning his action I assure you.

So, he used a rubber? He'll have his own gang after him.

 

[Gwylan]

Catholic means universal, he said Catholic, Not Roman Catholic.

Protestants are Catholics too.

That's a pretty far-fetched definition. You have made several posts on this subject and you've used Catholic as quite clearly meaning Roman Catholic. But for this one post, you want to make it different.

And if you told Protestants I know they were Catholic, you would have some very cross proddies on your hand.

I think the Catholics of Poland/Czechoslovakia/France that were butchered would beg to differ when you say they weren't persecuted.

They were butchered because they were Polish/French/Czech etc -not because they were Catholic.

I'm not some fanatical anti-Catholic but I don't think you minimise the part the church played in forming Hitler's views (there's a longs-standing belief on the part of some Catholics that the JHews were responsible for Christ's death) and the support that was shown to Hitler by large parts of the church.

I agree that Hitler's views swung wildly between being anti-religious and being Christian but that's the nature of being a megalomaniac I suppose. Anyone who's ever read Mein Kampf can scarcely recognise him as being rational.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

To put is simply, two reasons, firstly the Catholic Church is much begger and secondly, the child abuse issue is very fresh in people's minds, unlike World War two. As the oldest established Christian Religion it has more skeletons in it's closet than any other. However, let he who is without sin etc.

It has no more skeletons in its cupboard than your average Monarchy(which is alot!).

My only part in this discussion is to address the imbalances I see within alot of peoples statements.

I do not count you amongst those numbers, but there's alot of ignorant anti-catholic tripe being espoused in this thread.

I hope all guilty priests are convicted and jailed so that the decent priests can get on with their good work without some nasty stigma hanging over their heads.

 

[pork pie]

Nope, it is just a publicity stunt by Dawkins to sell more books.

I imagine the pope could easily have diplomatic immunity.

Why? Surely that is something granted to diplomats from other countries, not given to some priest that thinks he is god on earth?

 

[bhaexpress]

If they had the courage of their convictions?

They had no armies to send to the rescue or any political power in Germany.

I'm just not sure what you are saying they should have done that would have made the slightest difference?

Neville Chamberlain's actions were far more damaging than anything the Pope at the time did.

Should the UK be derided in the same way over their lack of actions and policy of appeasement?

I don't think so, but it's the same argument.

The fact is that the Catholic Church hold sway over millions of people throughout the world. The fact that they made no attempt to do anything makes the notion of being 'a Good Christian' rather fatuous. The church is not a country and as such should be apolitical although we all know that it is anything but. As I say, the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for and that is why it gets attacked. One thing that just about all religions hold in contempt is the sacrament of confession, a complete joke to any rational human being.

Do unto others as they do unto you ring any bells ?