Religion...

[Dave the OAP]

shut up BAG and get out to work

 

[Guinness Boy]

its not religion that causes problems, its the human beings that use it as an excuse to oppress other humans

Spot on DTG.

I am not religous in the slightest. However the slating of people who are by people who aren't is just as offensive as preachy-ness.

Religion is, in third world countries, what keeps people together. To deny them that right is cultral imperialism of the worst sort. It probably removes anything they have in their lives. To take a temple from a Hindu for example would be like taking a football club away from a loyal fan.

Having said that, using religion as an excuse for war is the very lowest crime in this world. But agnostic or atheist people should always be aware of the offence that they might cause their fellow man by questioning their beliefs.

 

[Dandyman]

Chistians/Jews/Muslims believe that when Jesus came to earth, the world was Godless and Jesus was sent to reign in the fold and point them in the direction of the "light"( Muslims believe Jesus Christ was a prophet in the same way Mohammed was a prophet, but not the son of Allah or God, in the same was they do not believe Mohammed was the Son of God) The "story" of Jesus healing the blind is another analogy of turning peoples faces towards God and "out of the darkness"

I'm aware that Jesus is a prophet in Islam, but since when did he exist in Judaism ?

 

[Dave the OAP]

wasn't he regarded as a prophet in Judaism as foretold by John the Baptist?

I stand corrected if I am wrong

 

[Yorkie]

Having experienced a couple of miracles in my own life (which I have mentioned before to a couple of people) then I have no problem believing that miracles happened in the Bible.

After all if you're the Creator and wrote the laws of physics etc then it is simplicity itself to temporarily suspend them to prove that you are God whilst in a human body which is what Jesus said he was.

 

[DTES]

Mmm. One of my (least?) favourite subjects? 100% Athiest. I point out now that I intend absolutely no offence by this post, and it's all just my opinion.

I believe there's more than we can see, but more to us. As in, there are parts of the universe, maybe more more dimensions we'll never detect (as in string theory, not distant alien dimensions). We're nothing but a series of chemical reactions. We're made of cells, which in terms are made of atoms, which react in the usual way.

I find the idea that someone (or thing?) put us here absolutely ridiculous, and the idea that there's someone above judging my actions utterly offensive. Is a mathematical equation good or evil? Clearly neither. It just is. There is, outside our existence, no such thing as right or wrong. They are labels that we assign ourselves to whatever suits us. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying war/murder/etc are OK, it's that the reason they're not OK is that we decided their not.

I completely understand the reason are religious. The appeal to the mind (bit like a psychologist this bit - sorry) is unmeasurable, the never ending love of someone always watching is something that clearly appeals. Along with the number of people also believing, the "Sheep" theory, and the power of the "that many can't be wrong" argument just hooks people in. The thing I cannot comprehend is people who 'blindly' follow a religious text. The idea that a 2000 (as an example) year old book is correct in everything it says is proposterous. The stories of many, written down by individuals are never going to be correct to what they heard, never mind going back to what actually happened/s.

It's been said before that to start a new religion, you need to it 3 things: i.Easy to join, ii.Hard to leave, iii.Full of rewards. I think most fit into these three.

As for religion or the oppression (sp) being the cause of the war, the fact is that without religion in the world there would not be nearly as much violence as there is. Without footy, ppl would find other things to fight about, but religous wars? I don't think they're the same at all.

And I refuse to accept that there would be no morals without religion. Is anyone trying to claim that we'd all be murdering and stealing from each other without the religious texts? I don't think so. Look at other species on this planet - yes they battle amongst themselves, but they still have order and rules within their societies. Take simple creatures like ants for example. Do you think they are religious? No, but they 100% work together, keep a civilised society, and even sacrifice their own lives when their eggs are at risk. I'd say they've developed a system of right and wrong, with nothing to read it from, so how is this explained?

 

[Dandyman]

wasn't he regarded as a prophet in Judaism as foretold by John the Baptist?

I stand corrected if I am wrong

Given that the John is part of the New Testament, rather than the Torah or Talmud, I don't see how he could be foretold. It is true that there were many messianic cults among Jews of that era and I would suggest that Jesus the Jewish revolutionary anti-imperialist might be "told" as the messiah in subsequent folk stories.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

Yikes. Serious stuff.

Atheist meself. There are too many valid points, well made on both sides of the argument in this thread, to address them all. However;

One of the reasons I think people ascribe the cause of wars to religion is that, despite the fact that people would find other things to murder/maim/fight over in the event it didn't exist, religious beliefs can sometimes blind people to the folly/evil of what they're doing. Their faith (usually twisted, as I've yet to come across a set of religious tenets which didn't preach understanding and compassion) that what they're doing is right is so unbreakable, so unbendable, that it can't be changed. I don't see that lack of objectivity in non-religious people. A generalisation I know - you can be blinded by other things, but one of the things I see as a drawback of strong religious beliefs.

As for 'weak' people. This is a tough one. I don't think they're 'weak' - if people who are suffering in any way, or who seek direction or meaning to their lives, or who just think there must be 'more to life', get comfort or strength from their beliefs, then I'm happy for them - we all find our comforts from something/somewhere. I personally feel I can live my life without what I've come to think of as (apologies for the offence this may cause) 'emotional crutches'. I set my own moral code and make my own decisions without such 'guidance' on a day-to-day basis. I like to think that I'm a decent person (surely we all like to think of ourselves that way) for my own reasons, not because of the threat (as I see it) of punishment in the afterlife if I'm not. My personal theory is that you're born, you live, you die, that's it. The struggle to accept our own mortality is one of the reasons religious faith occurs in mankind, I think.

I accept most of the points made about the bible being allegorical. I don't know it at all, so can't argue - but what I also see is some people who do take the thing literally, who do believe every word of it. I've met many, some of whom have been teachers, and this has to be wrong. This is true not just for the Bible, but the Talmud, the Koran, all the major religious texts have their followers, often rational, intelligent people, who take them literally. This doesn't stop some people 'interpreting' (ie twisting) the messages therein for their own ends of course.

Finally, coz I've gone on too long, one other problem I have with religious faith is the evangelical 'duty' that comes with some of them, and the attempted imposition or spreading of those beliefs by many. I'm very respectful of religious beliefs, however held, but I don't want them forced upon me by people who pity me because they think I'm going to burn in hell/float around in purgatory/whatever. I don't go around on Sunday mornings (every Sunday morning without exception in my street) preaching my atheism to people - I'm very happy to let them have their beliefs and get on with their lives without me sticking my nose in, and would really rather they felt exactly the same way.

 

[berkshire seagull]

Rrrrrrrr religion the worlds biggest killer!
Certainly not me and have no time for it what so ever although everyone to there own.

 

[Yorkie]

Given that the John is part of the New Testament, rather than the Torah or Talmud, I don't see how he could be foretold. It is true that there were many messianic cults among Jews of that era and I would suggest that Jesus the Jewish revolutionary anti-imperialist might be "told" as the messiah in subsequent folk stories.

There are over 200 prophecies in the Old Testament ranging from Moses onwards to Malachi regarding the Messiah.

Only Jesus fulfilled every single one of them. He didn't go around telling people that he was born in Bethlehem for example and one of the accusations that the 'religious' people of the day (yes he had problems with religious people too) was that he came from Galilee.

That prophecy about Bethlehem came from Kings (told to David and Jesus was related to David through Mary as well as Joseph) and in Isaiah 7:14

 

[DTES]

The struggle to accept our own mortality is one of the reasons religious faith occurs in mankind, I think.

That's the line I was looking for, couldn't find words as good as yours HHS. Slip that in my post, and it sums my paragraph up perfectly.

 

[Kent Seagull]

Can't be bothered with religion myself but believe everyone else is entitiled to choose whatever faith keeps 'em happy without having to suffer abuse, wars etc.

My boss is a Mormon but seems to think that a Sunday in church entitles him to be a compulsive liar and complete arsehole for the rest of the week. Proof that going to church no more makes a man religious than standing in a garage makes you a car!

 

[Yorkie]

Proof that going to church no more makes a man religious than standing in a garage makes you a car!

Excellent post

 

[curly]

buddhism, not a strict follower but its more a way of life than a religion

 

[Braders]

football is my religion ( apart from when judgement day comes , then i'm christian)

 

[Gangsta]

Wasnt religion what they did before NSC?

 

[Shizuoka Dolphin]

Religion. Well it's the opium of the masses. Innit.

 

[JEM]

but i dont beleive in any of the bible ,its just a story , what i do believe is that there was a guy who proclaimed to be the son of god, but was no more than a magician, its a case of chinese whispers, over time the stories have become exagerated,.
take the loafs and fishes 'story' he probably had a loaf and a fish and cut it up to feed 5 people by the time the story ,reach other people it turned into 5000!, people had never seen a magician b4 and worshipped the man.

at the end of the day ,no one really knows the truth,its all hearsay.

I agree, 99.9999% is utter tosh and the only remotely plausible bit is that Jesus might have existed. A old wives tale, spun so far out of proportion Alastair Campbell would have been proud. Exacerbated by the fact that most people were ignorant flat-earthers, the stories spiralled out of control.

Walk across water, my arse. A Hebrew soap opera, and nothing more.

 

[Safeway]

Mmm. One of my (least?) favourite subjects? 100% Athiest. I point out now that I intend absolutely no offence by this post, and it's all just my opinion.

I believe there's more than we can see, but more to us. As in, there are parts of the universe, maybe more more dimensions we'll never detect (as in string theory, not distant alien dimensions). We're nothing but a series of chemical reactions. We're made of cells, which in terms are made of atoms, which react in the usual way.

I find the idea that someone (or thing?) put us here absolutely ridiculous, and the idea that there's someone above judging my actions utterly offensive. Is a mathematical equation good or evil? Clearly neither. It just is. There is, outside our existence, no such thing as right or wrong. They are labels that we assign ourselves to whatever suits us. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying war/murder/etc are OK, it's that the reason they're not OK is that we decided their not.

I completely understand the reason are religious. The appeal to the mind (bit like a psychologist this bit - sorry) is unmeasurable, the never ending love of someone always watching is something that clearly appeals. Along with the number of people also believing, the "Sheep" theory, and the power of the "that many can't be wrong" argument just hooks people in. The thing I cannot comprehend is people who 'blindly' follow a religious text. The idea that a 2000 (as an example) year old book is correct in everything it says is proposterous. The stories of many, written down by individuals are never going to be correct to what they heard, never mind going back to what actually happened/s.

It's been said before that to start a new religion, you need to it 3 things: i.Easy to join, ii.Hard to leave, iii.Full of rewards. I think most fit into these three.

As for religion or the oppression (sp) being the cause of the war, the fact is that without religion in the world there would not be nearly as much violence as there is. Without footy, ppl would find other things to fight about, but religous wars? I don't think they're the same at all.

And I refuse to accept that there would be no morals without religion. Is anyone trying to claim that we'd all be murdering and stealing from each other without the religious texts? I don't think so. Look at other species on this planet - yes they battle amongst themselves, but they still have order and rules within their societies. Take simple creatures like ants for example. Do you think they are religious? No, but they 100% work together, keep a civilised society, and even sacrifice their own lives when their eggs are at risk. I'd say they've developed a system of right and wrong, with nothing to read it from, so how is this explained?

Excellent post. Don't agree with a lot of it as I have my own beliefs regarding Karma and higher states of conciousness (reached through prayer and meditation), but you've put your point across superbly without lowering your self to ridicule and mud-slinging.

Good work, fella.

 

[Shizuoka Dolphin]

Originally posted by Mr Popkins
its all hearsay.

Not forgetting conjecture. There was a fair bit of that, I'm sure.

and[size]

Hearsay!? That's heresy!