[Football] Ref blaming

[Swansman]

You attack me on a personal level , about something i wrote in good faith to someone else on the Mental Health thread .I know people like you ,before i learnt to control my emotions a little better i used to end up in a lot of trouble ,but not anywhere near as much trouble as you would have been in with me .

Anyone who stoops as low as you have just done needs to have been where i have, and sometimes still go back to mentally, to understand what type of COWARD you must be to make that comment .

Ok here's a bit of social advice: if you don't want to be attacked on a personal level, don't initiate your part of a conversation by saying "what particular kind of stupid are you?", because that makes people not like you (or at least you'll expose your neck to a demon). And when people does not like you, you might get anxious.

...unless you go with just not caring too much. Have a laugh at yourself. I wrote about my (once) dire situation in the mental health thread and I still get daily comments about pizza boxes. It doesn't bother me - because I have self-distance and because I've decided not to generally not give a shit what random people that I don't really know thinks about this or that. Try it.

 

[TugWilson]

Which 200m? Those in your UFO book circle?

I imagine most people are well aware that you could be a good ref without being a good player, and a good player without being a good ref.

What are you 14? , ask ANY and i do mean ANY Swede about the Swedish rockets of the 50s ! . They will tell you about UFOs , along with the USN who have confirmed the 3 videos released in 2017 shot with gun-camera footage are real.

That`s not the point though is it knobend ,you must be a ref or at least blowing one to defend poor decision making as you have done .

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Back on topic, I think most refs get most decisions right enough. It's the incredibly wrong ones that are causing the problem. Firstly, they are so blindingly obvious that it beggars belief they get them wrong. Having got them wrong, it incredible that the assistant ref doesn't tell them. One person seeing it wrong just might happen. The assistant ref is surely now called an assistant ref to assist the ref when he obviously gets it wrong and he has bloody great big coloured flag to signal it. If the assistant was gazing somewhere else, or on the opposite side of the pitch. The ref has a spare ref on VAR duty with cameras available to show what a ground full of fans and millions in armchairs have seen all over the world. If the ref doesn't know he missed an incident, surely the VAR can have a word in his ear and/or suggest he takes a look at the monitor. I like VAR unlike probably a majority of fans, but if the assistants won't help the refs and the VAR won't assist the ref, it just will lead to ref blaming and rightly so. If they do a great job for 88 minutes and make one or two absolute blunders in the other 2 minutes, their full support team should help them out, but if the Welbeck 'penalty' didn't invoke VAR involvement due to some kind of bar that the incident didn't reach, then frankly they might as well switch it off.

 

[TugWilson]

Ok here's a bit of social advice: if you don't want to be attacked on a personal level, don't initiate your part of a conversation by saying "what particular kind of stupid are you?", because that makes people not like you (or at least you'll expose your neck to a demon). And when people does not like you, you might get anxious.

...unless you go with just not caring too much. Have a laugh at yourself. I wrote about my (once) dire situation in the mental health thread and I still get daily comments about pizza boxes. It doesn't bother me - because I have self-distance and because I've decided not to generally not give a shit what random people that I don't really know thinks about this or that. Try it.

If you have been there ,that makes your comment all the worse, and you have learnt F*** all from the people who commented on you .

Calling someone stupid on a decision that is clearly wrong,dubious at best ,is NOT an invitation to attack someone on a personal and private level. There will be people (me included) that believe the Mental Health thread is there for individuals to seek help and advice from others in their same place . NOT for C**TS like you to browse through for ammunition to use against them when they piss you off ,or beat you in a conversation .

 

[drew]

Back on topic, I think most refs get most decisions right enough. It's the incredibly wrong ones that are causing the problem. Firstly, they are so blindingly obvious that it beggars belief they get them wrong. Having got them wrong, it incredible that the assistant ref doesn't tell them. One person seeing it wrong just might happen. The assistant ref is surely now called an assistant ref to assist the ref when he obviously gets it wrong and he has bloody great big coloured flag to signal it. If the assistant was gazing somewhere else, or on the opposite side of the pitch. The ref has a spare ref on VAR duty with cameras available to show what a ground full of fans and millions in armchairs have seen all over the world. If the ref doesn't know he missed an incident, surely the VAR can have a word in his ear and/or suggest he takes a look at the monitor. I like VAR unlike probably a majority of fans, but if the assistants won't help the refs and the VAR won't assist the ref, it just will lead to ref blaming and rightly so. If they do a great job for 88 minutes and make one or two absolute blunders in the other 2 minutes, their full support team should help them out, but if the Welbeck 'penalty' didn't invoke VAR involvement due to some kind of bar that the incident didn't reach, then frankly they might as well switch it off.

Agree with all that.

I'm sure there is some statistician that will say ref's get most decisions right and they probably do if you include throw ins etc. It is the big decisions that they seem to be getting wrong more and more often.

There has been a very noticeable shift in allowing play to continue and I'd love to know whether the EPL, the FA or the PGMOL have decided where the bar is set. Whilst I think we all wanted to see the game flow more, I believe it's gone too far the other way and there are fouls not be given when they should.

 

[Baldseagull]

It is frustrating when Man Utd have Paul Tierney reffing one of their home games, (as he is a Man Utd supporter) and it seems the errors he makes favour Utd. But as others have said, it's VAR not correcting them that is worse.

 

[Swansman]

It is frustrating when Man Utd have Paul Tierney reffing one of their home games, (as he is a Man Utd supporter) and it seems the errors he makes favour Utd. But as others have said, it's VAR not correcting them that is worse.

That is one really, really odd aspect of refereeing in England: the concept of putting refs in charge of games where one of the teams come from their home city. I don't think I've heard of that in any other country. If some bloke from Madrid was picked to go to Camp Nou and be the ref in a game between Barcelona and Real Madrid, I don't think I'm exaggerating when saying it would very easily turn into a bloodbath. Or someone from Turin reffing Milan vs Juventus... the guy would have a fair amount of horse heads in his bed when coming home.

 

[Acker79]

Back on topic, I think most refs get most decisions right enough. It's the incredibly wrong ones that are causing the problem. Firstly, they are so blindingly obvious that it beggars belief they get them wrong. Having got them wrong, it incredible that the assistant ref doesn't tell them. One person seeing it wrong just might happen. The assistant ref is surely now called an assistant ref to assist the ref when he obviously gets it wrong and he has bloody great big coloured flag to signal it. If the assistant was gazing somewhere else, or on the opposite side of the pitch. The ref has a spare ref on VAR duty with cameras available to show what a ground full of fans and millions in armchairs have seen all over the world. If the ref doesn't know he missed an incident, surely the VAR can have a word in his ear and/or suggest he takes a look at the monitor. I like VAR unlike probably a majority of fans, but if the assistants won't help the refs and the VAR won't assist the ref, it just will lead to ref blaming and rightly so. If they do a great job for 88 minutes and make one or two absolute blunders in the other 2 minutes, their full support team should help them out, but if the Welbeck 'penalty' didn't invoke VAR involvement due to some kind of bar that the incident didn't reach, then frankly they might as well switch it off.

I think this exposes the fundamental flaw in the conversation (not directing these comments specifically at you, your post was just the most recent). I'm sure I've said similar in a recent thread.

There often is no 'right' (or 'wrong') decision. That's what subjective means. This attitude of 'right/wrong' is the source of frustration. People don't really want the right decision, they want their decision. So a ref makes his decision, and an assistant/VAR who understands the laws make the Ref's decision the one that counts aren't looking to make sure the ref makes the 'right' decision as they see it, just an honest one. Hence the process of the ref explaining what he saw, and the VAR accepting his decision was based on what happened, or the VAR says 'that isn't what happened, have another look' then the ref looks and makes his own decision on the footage with the benefit of another angle/speed etc. It's why Deemot Gallagher so frequently says "I can see why he gave it" rather than "he's wrong".

If people could get out of their own heads, and realise that just because they (and even their friends/fellow fans/the ex players on TV) think a different decision should be made, it doesn't mean they are right and the ref is wrong, there would be a lot less frustration/anger with referees, VAR etc.

We see the disagreements on here, on various TV shows, radio phone ins, podcasts. If the ref made the same decision as I make in every instance, there would still be people saying he got it wrong, and VAR should have corrected him and what's the point of it if it's not going to correct him. If he makes the decisions that you (whoever is reading this) would make, there would be other people who think he's got it wrong and VAR should have corrected it and why have VAR if they're not going to get involved.

Yes, there are instances when refs get it wrong, they see everything as it happened, they just made the wrong call for whatever reason (brain fart/lapse in concentration, trying to show leniancy or fairness and overcompensating, etc) they are human beings. In those instances where the ref saw what happened and it matches what VAR saw, they're not allowed to advise the ref to look at the video. Perhaps they should be, but then how do you distinguish between the margins - how much contorting to see the ref's point of view when it is different from your own is too much?



I also think we should do a better job of distinguishing between a poor refereeing performance, and a bad law or bad instructions. Some of the decisions are made because that's how their paymasters tell them to make them, and if they don't make the decision that way, they get benched until they learn to do it the way they are instructed. While they may want to make a decision we'd like more, if they do they are punished for it, because it's not how they've been told to apply that law. And if we're being generous perhaps try to understand it - we approach games wanting the best outcome for our clubs/the worst outcome for our rivals, and/or entertainment. PGMOL and Premier league want laws that give the competition structure and attempt at fairness. That is going to lead to different interpretations.

 

[Swansman]

What are you 14? , ask ANY and i do mean ANY Swede about the Swedish rockets of the 50s ! . They will tell you about UFOs , along with the USN who have confirmed the 3 videos released in 2017 shot with gun-camera footage are real.

That`s not the point though is it knobend ,you must be a ref or at least blowing one to defend poor decision making as you have done .

Ok I was not going to answer this, in order to get the topic back on track, but I think it might you help sleep better:
1. I'm not a non-believer in UFOs and I'm well aware of the situation in the 1950s. But you invited me (calling me stupid because of my take on refs) to wind you up, and so I did.
2. I think you're just about the only person in the world that believes you need to be a good footballer to be a good ref (or vice versa).

Now lets keep the UFOs - Kevin Friend aside - out from this thread.

 

[Baldseagull]

That is one really, really odd aspect of refereeing in England: the concept of putting refs in charge of games where one of the teams come from their home city. I don't think I've heard of that in any other country. If some bloke from Madrid was picked to go to Camp Nou and be the ref in a game between Barcelona and Real Madrid, I don't think I'm exaggerating when saying it would very easily turn into a bloodbath. Or someone from Turin reffing Milan vs Juventus... the guy would have a fair amount of horse heads in his bed when coming home.

It could be worse, I don't feel I have watched matches in England where I felt the Ref had taken a bribe, bar one example. https://wearebrighton.com/albiondat...-who-delivered-defeat-in-coppells-first-game/
Serie A clubs were picking the refs they wanted every match a few seasons back.

 

[Popeye]

Like in any other sport, some are way better than others. You just have to hope that you get a good one.

 

[Icy Gull]

It could be worse, I don't feel I have watched matches in England where I felt the Ref had taken a bribe, bar one example. https://wearebrighton.com/albiondat...-who-delivered-defeat-in-coppells-first-game/
Serie A clubs were picking the refs they wanted every match a few seasons back.

I believe Prosser pulled out the racist card after the game too?

 

[Baldseagull]

I believe Prosser pulled out the racist card after the game too?

Yes, with no player or staff of either club, no steward, and no Police Officer being able to corroborate his claim. He got dogs abuse, I was screaming plenty of it, but no racial abuse.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can take ref errors, as you say we have moaned about them for ever. It all tends to even itself out over a season. However there is no excuse for the complete **** ups made by VAR week in week out. In just two games, the push on Welbeck, the tackle by McThug, the pull on Cucu’s hair. Now the McThug one MAYBE mitigating circumstances because Caicedo could have been deemed to have gone in two footed too. The other two, no way. One was a pen and the other should have been at least a booking or sending off. VAR is not fit for purpose too often, I’d happily see it binned and live with refs making errors thanks.

I think there will be disciplinary actions taken against Tuchel for certain and probably Conte. Totally unacceptable behaviour and Tuchel’s outburst against the ref (whilst having some justification) should be stamped on

I can't help thinking you may have missed the point.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ok I was not going to answer this, in order to get the topic back on track, but I think it might you help sleep better:
1. I'm not a non-believer in UFOs and I'm well aware of the situation in the 1950s. But you invited me (calling me stupid because of my take on refs) to wind you up, and so I did.
2. I think you're just about the only person in the world that believes you need to be a good footballer to be a good ref (or vice versa).

Now lets keep the UFOs - Kevin Friend aside - out from this thread.

Your point (which appears to have been missed by the very first reply - see post above) is that inflammatory post match roasting of refs is incitement and could lead to some nob doing a Rushdie on a ref. So it would be nice if all this stuff was taklen down a notch or ten. I agree with you.

All this crap about how upsetting it is when a ref gives a decision against the Albion is whataboutery. Reminds me of the 'contributory negligence' issue of the 1980s (posts passim).

 

[Icy Gull]

I can't help thinking you may have missed the point.

Not really, if VAR had done it’s job the meltdown at Stamford Bridge would not have reached the levels it did and the ref would not have got post match dog’s abuse

Before the days of every angle being reviewed we all just agreed the ref had fecked up but we didn’t have social media either to inflame everything

Refs are just as prone to feck ups as they ever were, they are now out there for anyone to go batshit mental on line about

I believe plenty of managers had a right go at the ref post match decades ago too

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not really, if VAR had done it’s job the meltdown at Stamford Bridge would not have reached the levels it did and the ref would not have got post match dog’s abuse

Before the days of every angle being reviewed we all just agreed the ref had fecked up but we didn’t have social media either to inflame everything

Refs are just as prone to feck ups as they ever were, they are now out there for anyone to go batshit mental on line about

I believe plenty of managers had a right go at the ref post match decades ago too

The point being made is that managers (or players) escalating the vitriol after the game to the point where refs and their families get death threats is simply wrong.

 

[Icy Gull]

The point being made is that managers (or players) escalating the vitriol after the game to the point where refs and their families get death threats is simply wrong.

I know and the reason it is happening is because VAR is often not fit for purpose and social media.

You are not suggesting managers and players having hissy fits is something new are you?

Not sure how that is missing the point as to my little brain it explains WHY it is happening

If the point is that it’s got to stop….well good luck with that, it’s not going to.

 

[Swansman]

I know and the reason it is happening is because VAR is often not fit for purpose and social media.

Not sure how that is missing the point as to my little brain it explains WHY it is happening

It happened before VAR as well. And you tell me how to solve the social media problem...

Shit stirring managers and players are a huge part of the problem, and the one part that could be dealt with. You can just have quick look at Reddit to see how many wankers who supports Tuchel and the Chelsea players in their witch hunt against the refs.

It is disgusting. These managers and players earn 10x more than any ref, they have thousands - sometimes millions - of fans, and they attack those who take the thankless job of being a ref. VAR is not the reason - the sad species that is the modern human is the issue here.

In 10-15 years I don't think we have refs, it will all be done with AI. Starting this season already, AI will help with offside calls in the CL and that is just the beginning. Until then, the refs need to be protected from psychos like Tuchel.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

I think this exposes the fundamental flaw in the conversation (not directing these comments specifically at you, your post was just the most recent). I'm sure I've said similar in a recent thread.

There often is no 'right' (or 'wrong') decision. That's what subjective means. This attitude of 'right/wrong' is the source of frustration. People don't really want the right decision, they want their decision. So a ref makes his decision, and an assistant/VAR who understands the laws make the Ref's decision the one that counts aren't looking to make sure the ref makes the 'right' decision as they see it, just an honest one. Hence the process of the ref explaining what he saw, and the VAR accepting his decision was based on what happened, or the VAR says 'that isn't what happened, have another look' then the ref looks and makes his own decision on the footage with the benefit of another angle/speed etc. It's why Deemot Gallagher so frequently says "I can see why he gave it" rather than "he's wrong".

If people could get out of their own heads, and realise that just because they (and even their friends/fellow fans/the ex players on TV) think a different decision should be made, it doesn't mean they are right and the ref is wrong, there would be a lot less frustration/anger with referees, VAR etc.

We see the disagreements on here, on various TV shows, radio phone ins, podcasts. If the ref made the same decision as I make in every instance, there would still be people saying he got it wrong, and VAR should have corrected him and what's the point of it if it's not going to correct him. If he makes the decisions that you (whoever is reading this) would make, there would be other people who think he's got it wrong and VAR should have corrected it and why have VAR if they're not going to get involved.

Yes, there are instances when refs get it wrong, they see everything as it happened, they just made the wrong call for whatever reason (brain fart/lapse in concentration, trying to show leniancy or fairness and overcompensating, etc) they are human beings. In those instances where the ref saw what happened and it matches what VAR saw, they're not allowed to advise the ref to look at the video. Perhaps they should be, but then how do you distinguish between the margins - how much contorting to see the ref's point of view when it is different from your own is too much?



I also think we should do a better job of distinguishing between a poor refereeing performance, and a bad law or bad instructions. Some of the decisions are made because that's how their paymasters tell them to make them, and if they don't make the decision that way, they get benched until they learn to do it the way they are instructed. While they may want to make a decision we'd like more, if they do they are punished for it, because it's not how they've been told to apply that law. And if we're being generous perhaps try to understand it - we approach games wanting the best outcome for our clubs/the worst outcome for our rivals, and/or entertainment. PGMOL and Premier league want laws that give the competition structure and attempt at fairness. That is going to lead to different interpretations.

You may not be aiming at me particularly, but certainly generally. To suggest fans just want decisions to go their way misses the point entirely although I think I may also have missed the original point of the OP. That aside, I just want obvious reffing decisions reviewed effectively and corrected. To make that clear, I wasn't baying for a red card from my settee for the McTominey tackle, but I was frustrated by the 'obvious' penalty decision. By the way, you referenced Dermot Gallagher and even he said it was a penalty. Every Man Utd fan would have expected and accepted a penalty even at Old Trafford. That is not just demanding every decision goes your team's way - just asking for the right 'clear and obvious' outcome, which is rather different. It seems Dermot Gallagher has now decided that he too can't defend the indefensible. As an aside and in response to another comment about refs reffing their home team at home, I realise we shouldn't question their integrity and PGMOL won't do so. But surely if Tierney had any integrity, he would recuse himself from reffing any Man Utd games particularly at Old Trafford or maybe even a match that affected a final outcome for them. That would really show integrity.