Racism And The Cumberbatch Conundrum

[Baldseagull]

How many times is that rubbish going to be brought up in relation to Andy Murray. Even the Mail admitted they'd wound him up to get him to say something.

Every time some one says he is disliked by some in England merely for being Scottish, I believe he is disliked by some as he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being anti English. Other Scottish sportsmen, especially those representing Britain in sports are well received and supported in England. As he gave some late support to the Yes vote for Scottish independence it seems he would prefer to not be British and Scottish, just Scottish, and that is fine, but why should anyone support a player of any sport as a fellow countryman when that player has expressed the view that he does not want to be a fellow countryman?

 

[User removed 4]

Every time some one says he is disliked by some in England merely for being Scottish, I believe he is disliked by some as he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being anti English. Other Scottish sportsmen, especially those representing Britain in sports are well received and supported in England. As he gave some late support to the Yes vote for Scottish independence it seems he would prefer to not be British and Scottish, just Scottish, and that is fine, but why should anyone support a player of any sport as a fellow countryman when that player has expressed the view that he does not want to be a fellow countryman?

Spot on.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Thats social ettiquette and not whats called a speech code.

Semantics. Our speech code is a part of our societies etiquette. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be there.

As i'm sure you wouldn't deliberately offend your partner, i'm sure you wouldn't deliberately offend random people, for no cause. If you did, you would probably eventually come a cropper, it's just a case of playing the numbers. But i have assumed that yours was a flippant post, hence my flippant reply that you misunderstood.

Be respectful and don't be a knob seems a pretty good rule of life.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Every time some one says he is disliked by some in England merely for being Scottish, I believe he is disliked by some as he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being anti English. Other Scottish sportsmen, especially those representing Britain in sports are well received and supported in England. As he gave some late support to the Yes vote for Scottish independence it seems he would prefer to not be British and Scottish, just Scottish, and that is fine, but why should anyone support a player of any sport as a fellow countryman when that player has expressed the view that he does not want to be a fellow countryman?

I think he might be anti-english government and it's foreign policies. e.g. the conservatives redistribution of wealth, war, meddling in the middle east etc.

I don't believe he is anti the english people or our society. As usual, over simplification leads to poor reasoning.

I would also like to add that the british isles is a physical place and existed long before the union that made 'great britain'. Dissolution of that recent political union would in no way cause scotland to float off the british isles.

 

[daveinprague]

Didnt the 'Great' in Great Britain come about from the middle ages, when there was a swathe of France that was English?
ie the British Isles were Great Britain, and the French bit Lesser Britain or something?

 

[looney]

Semantics. Our speech code is a part of our societies etiquette. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be there.

As i'm sure you wouldn't deliberately offend your partner, i'm sure you wouldn't deliberately offend random people, for no cause. If you did, you would probably eventually come a cropper, it's just a case of playing the numbers. But i have assumed that yours was a flippant post, hence my flippant reply that you misunderstood.

Be respectful and don't be a knob seems a pretty good rule of life.

Nice exercise in ducking and diving so i'll be very specific.

I am talking about political speech codes, those that rarely exist beyond university campuses or those who like to act anonymously. As when fingered its usually a responce of "I was only obeying orders".

Other names for it would be political correctness/ the race relations industry. Those who are professionally offended on behalf of others who have political motives based on discredited social control theories.

They(the protagonists) are usually quite easy to identify by their being evasive, anoymous or denial. There termiology tends to follow fad /fasion hence so many people falling foull of them. Often desribed as preachy, ignorant with no mandate.

Does any of this sound similar to you example about not making clumsy comments to the Misses.

 

[looney]

Didnt the 'Great' in Great Britain come about from the middle ages, when there was a swathe of France that was English?
ie the British Isles were Great Britain, and the French bit Lesser Britain or something?

Close, its a french word in origin Grande Bretagne and Bretagne, itself derived from Latin Brittania. It is commonly seen as a Greater Britain type of proxy for the British Isles since then.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Every time some one says he is disliked by some in England merely for being Scottish, I believe he is disliked by some as he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being anti English. Other Scottish sportsmen, especially those representing Britain in sports are well received and supported in England. As he gave some late support to the Yes vote for Scottish independence it seems he would prefer to not be British and Scottish, just Scottish, and that is fine, but why should anyone support a player of any sport as a fellow countryman when that player has expressed the view that he does not want to be a fellow countryman?

Superb semi final win in Australia. Another Grand Slam final. Superb stuff from Andy Murray!

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Nice exercise in ducking and diving so i'll be very specific.

I am talking about political speech codes, those that rarely exist beyond university campuses or those who like to act anonymously. As when fingered its usually a responce of "I was only obeying orders".

Other names for it would be political correctness/ the race relations industry. Those who are professionally offended on behalf of others who have political motives based on discredited social control theories.

They(the protagonists) are usually quite easy to identify by their being evasive, anoymous or denial. There termiology tends to follow fad /fasion hence so many people falling foull of them. Often desribed as preachy, ignorant with no mandate.

Does any of this sound similar to you example about not making clumsy comments to the Misses.

A few points to comment on here.

Thanks for being specific, we all have different angles which we read from.

You seem to be talking about only those who get offended on other peoples behalf, you make no comment about those who are genuinely offended, which the speech code is designed for. Perhaps you genuinely believe that no one is offended by the word 'coloured' for example?

Use of the words 'fad/fashion' lead me to believe that you don't understand why these words have been changed, you come across as very cynical. Perhaps you don't like being told that words you have previously used are deemed offensive by some?

An example of a word that has been changed was 'spastic' it was continually abused by people, so that those who identified with the word, i.e. spastics, we're left with their identity widely used as an insult. I have noticed the same happening with the word 'autistic' amongst the younger generations recently. So you might misleadingly call this 'fashion' i however would call it ignorance.

 

[User removed 4]

Superb semi final win in Australia. Another Grand Slam final. Superb stuff from Andy Murray!

The majority of scots hold people like you in contempt, Jesus wept they laugh at you .

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Close, its a french word in origin Grande Bretagne and Bretagne, itself derived from Latin Brittania. It is commonly seen as a Greater Britain type of proxy for the British Isles since then.

The romans called our isles Brittanica (sp?), they got it from the ancient greeks though, who called them prittanica (sp? - no time to research).

This has a translation some think to mean, 'painted people' - Always makes me smile when i see tattoos back in fashion, the first people here might have been known for them.

 

[Baldseagull]

I think he might be anti-english government and it's foreign policies. e.g. the conservatives redistribution of wealth, war, meddling in the middle east etc.

I don't believe he is anti the english people or our society. As usual, over simplification leads to poor reasoning.

I would also like to add that the british isles is a physical place and existed long before the union that made 'great britain'. Dissolution of that recent political union would in no way cause scotland to float off the british isles.

Thanks for letting me know I have oversimplified and have poor reasoning. I am aware that Scotland will not float away, I had not realised however that Andy Murray was representing a land mass at the Olympics, I thought it was a nation of people.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The majority of scots hold people like you in contempt, Jesus wept they laugh at you .

Keep sucking on the lemons bushy!

 

[User removed 4]

Keep sucking on the lemons bushy!

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Thanks for letting me know I have oversimplified and have poor reasoning. I am aware that Scotland will not float away, I had not realised however that Andy Murray was representing a land mass at the Olympics, I thought it was a nation of people.

You're welcome. You were giving the impression of accusing him of racism, which i doubt you intended, it does seem a little ridiculous.

The last point echo's what has been mentioned in other posts. That these isles have been named after the various british tribes that have and still live here, dissolving a recent political union wouldn't change that.

 

[Lower West Stander]

Not in the UK, but more specifically England. The UK has massively varying attitudes, this is important to remember.
I spend a lot of time in the U.S. and as a rule they are far more sensitive than most of the UK outside of London or Birmingham or Manchester.

Sorry. I can't agree with you there at all.

There is still a fair amount of entrenchment in the deep south in the US which is far worse than anything in Britain and as the recent shooting events have shown, racist undertones remain very strong. I live in New York and some of the every day stuff I hear in the street here would never be said across the pond. I just find it ridiculous that someone could be criticised as heavily as Cumberbatch when true racism remains endemic in both countries.

 

[looney]

A few points to comment on here.

Thanks for being specific, we all have different angles which we read from.

You seem to be talking about only those who get offended on other peoples behalf, you make no comment about those who are genuinely offended, which the speech code is designed for. Perhaps you genuinely believe that no one is offended by the word 'coloured' for example?

Use of the words 'fad/fashion' lead me to believe that you don't understand why these words have been changed, you come across as very cynical. Perhaps you don't like being told that words you have previously used are deemed offensive by some?

An example of a word that has been changed was 'spastic' it was continually abused by people, so that those who identified with the word, i.e. spastics, we're left with their identity widely used as an insult. I have noticed the same happening with the word 'autistic' amongst the younger generations recently. So you might misleadingly call this 'fashion' i however would call it ignorance.

True I and most people do not take kindly to being "told", by whom when and where? You can always wheel out a rep whos offended and your example is a group who by definition are not offended due to mental incopacities.

The problem here is not only your assumption you in someway support these groups (A recent thread on gay chants found that the gays on here were not that bothered ), it is also the big assumption that changing the langauge will change attitudes, thinking. This is quite often found to be false. especially the strongform version. It also avoids any nod to human nature, as is its simplistic ideological creed would avoid that.

What you are left with is someone who is self-rightious(being offended on behalf of others), lecturing someone(being told) on langauge use without having any source, reference or consensus, following and ideological vent that in terms of evidence is at best weak on a topic thats probably not related to either had hence not fully informed.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

True I and most people do not take kindly to being "told", by whom when and where? You can always wheel out a rep whos offended and your example is a group who by definition are not offended due to mental incopacities.

The problem here is not only your assumption you in someway support these groups (A recent thread on gay chants found that the gays on here were not that bothered ), it is also the big assumption that changing the langauge will change attitudes, thinking. This is quite often found to be false. especially the strongform version. It also avoids any nod to human nature, as is its simplistic ideological creed would avoid that.

What you are left with is someone who is self-rightious(being offended on behalf of others), lecturing someone(being told) on langauge use without having any source, reference or consensus, following and ideological vent that in terms of evidence is at best weak on a topic thats probably not related to either had hence not fully informed.

Your ignorance is ironically a wonderful example of why speech codes are actually useful.
You think 'spastics' are mentally incapacitated, why? Because of how their identity has been abused as an insult?
This is proof of why they had to change their name to cerebral palsy.

Anyhow you've been unlucky there methinks, but still tell me... do you really believe that a significant number of black people aren't offended by the word 'coloured' as their identity?

It seems to me your focussed on hating some principles brought in by the 'bleeding heart' brigade, i could be wrong, but you must see how these codes actually protect vulnerable people from ignorance?

Anyhow, it's lovely you have an opinion, so many don't...

 

[Baldseagull]

You're welcome. You were giving the impression of accusing him of racism, which i doubt you intended, it does seem a little ridiculous.

The last point echo's what has been mentioned in other posts. That these isles have been named after the various british tribes that have and still live here, dissolving a recent political union wouldn't change that.

I did not suggest he was racist, he did, when he said he would support anyone but England. I have since been told that this was an example of his shining wit. So jokingly, when a tennis tournament is on, I support whoever Murray is playing against, of course in reality I don't give a toss either way.

 

[W.C.]

Every time some one says he is disliked by some in England merely for being Scottish, I believe he is disliked by some as he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being anti English. Other Scottish sportsmen, especially those representing Britain in sports are well received and supported in England. As he gave some late support to the Yes vote for Scottish independence it seems he would prefer to not be British and Scottish, just Scottish, and that is fine, but why should anyone support a player of any sport as a fellow countryman when that player has expressed the view that he does not want to be a fellow countryman?

Firstly, a big part of him being perceived as 'anti-english' was down to that article. It's been brought up in this thread and it's been brought up countless other times on NSC, just one tiny insignificant speck of the community. And it was wrong. The paper that set him up to say something like that even admits to it. Many people go around repeating the 'fact' that Andy Murray is anti-english based on that.
Secondly, why shouldn't he have supported the Yes vote? It doesn't necessarily mean he dislikes being British. He could be a chest thumping kilt wearing patriot for all I know, or he could have been politically excited by a break from Westminster.
Whichever, personally I think he's been the victim of lazy/snide journalistic caricaturing (is that a verb?) who, once he has really proved he's a top top player, has then had the press wanting to cosy up to him. Ooh sorry about all that World Cup stuff Andy, until you're over the hill....

I don't agree most English support Scottish sportsman now. 20 years ago, yes, but these days you more often hear the Andy Murray style argument, well they don't support us why should we support them.
Not bothered myself, I'm sure Bushy would be pleased to hear I'm more interested in the results of my Dad's country's team to worry what the Scots are up to.