[Misc] Putin's Least Believable BS Yet?

[dingodan]

I do mean to be a pedant - I did not say that at all, you are thinking of another poster.

EDIT: Wait you are right, I am mistaking you for someone else, sorry.

In response to what you did say, I'm not making any claims either, other than that evidence is required, and so far it hasn't been forthcoming.

 

[Half Time Pies]

First, let me just be clear, I'm not saying that they didn't do it, I'm saying the evidence is not sufficient to prove that they did. Evidence does matter.

They were in the area, yes, is that proof, no. I'd like to see proof as much as you, but proof is required.

As for the traces of Novichok in the hotel room, that's not quite as clear cut as it might seem at first. Two swabs tested positive, and when the same areas were retested, the tests came back negative. It was suggested that the first swabs destroyed the only traces which existed. Maybe that's true. Could the first tests have been false positives? I don't know, but let's assume they weren't, the traces must have been incredibly low. Which also explains why the results of the tests were not disclosed to the hotel or guests staying there at the time until several months later.

Remember the advice which was given at the time, for people who had been in certain locations in the area, was to destroy their clothing. Because being in the area may have exposed people to traces of the substance. These two were in the area and could have come into contact with trace amounts for that reason. This was clearly considered as a serious possibility, hence the advice for people to clean items they may have had on them and even to destroy their clothing.

As for whether the first tests were even accurate, especially given the negative results on the second tests, it would have helped if those samples were treated the same way as all the other samples. In order to ensure objectivity all samples were supposed to be sent to the OPCW (The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons). The hotel room samples were never sent to the OPCW for testing.

None of this proves them innocent by any stretch of the imagination, but a headline like "traces of Novichok found in hotel room" doesn't tell the whole story, and can lead people to draw conclusions which aren't as solid as they might first appear.

Absolute proof of guilt can only be established in a court, which will be impossible as these two are never going to stand trial in this country, but that doesn't stop us as rational human beings realising that the only plausible explanation can be that these chaps and the Russia state are guilty as hell!

So far we have:
A nerve agent developed in the soviet union used against a ex Russian spy. i.e. a motive and means.
Previous of similar Russian assassinations against ex-spies carried out in this county using unorthodox means i.e. Litvanenko.
Previous of Russian denials and non-cooperation and a laissez faire attitude to these assassinations despite there being significant evidence (don't forget in the case of Litvanenko the evidence was assessed by way of a public enquiry yet one of the suspects was made a hero in Russia given a medal and later made an MP).
2 male suspects that travelled from Russia to Salisbury on passports with near consecutive serial numbers for 48 hours, stayed in a inconvenient hotel in East London and made a trip to Salisbury on the day before and the day of the attack, captured on CCTV near to the Skripals house at the time of the attack.
Hardened men from Russian a country that regularly sees temperatures well below zero that were apparently put off from travelling to stone henge by a small amount of snow!
Traces of Novichok in their hotel room
Intelligence linking them to the Russian security services
A completely laughable staged interview which would like us to believe that these men went to all that trouble to see the spire of salisbury cathedral and for some inexplicable unexplained reason took a wander near the Skripals house at the time of the attack.

What makes this even funnier is that the conspiracy nuts like you who are still questioning the above evidence as not being comprehensive enough are happy to come up with there own theories of world wide conspiracies based on 'evidence' that they have gleaned from the comfort of their bedroom primarily by watching Youtube videos!

 

[amexer]

Just seen there interview. Have to feel sorry for them to be accused of such a crime when all they did was have a 2 day trip so they could look at the Cathedral

 

[LVGull]

Just seen there interview. Have to feel sorry for them to be accused of such a crime when all they did was have a 2 day trip so they could look at the Cathedral

I actually believe their story.

 

[Triggaaar]

EDIT: Wait you are right, I am mistaking you for someone else, sorry.

No problem

In response to what you did say, I'm not making any claims either, other than that evidence is required, and so far it hasn't been forthcoming.

Yes there does have to be evidence, but that evidence doesn't have to be presented to us, we're not the jury.

What there has been though:
Details of where they went, and the times, including photos by a petrol station.
Claim by the Russians as to where they went and the times. Also acceptance that they may have been near the house.
It seems that they did not have time to go both where they were photographed, and where they claim to have gone.

They claim to have travelled all the way the the UK, just to see the cathedral in Salisbury. They didn't book a hotel there, they stayed in London. They went to Salisbury twice, but were only there for a couple of hours, and ended up walking away from the cathedral, away from all tourist attractions, and towards the Skripal's house instead. Nothing they are claiming makes any sense at all.

I don't believe their story for one second. You'd have to be a fool to believe it.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

I've just watched, and highly recommend, the deeply troubling documentary 'Active Measures' about the history of Putin and how he got his claws into Donald Trump.

IMDB: Active Measures.

The attack in Salisbury is pretty much the standard modus operandi for Putin's regime.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Spotted these tourists in London today.

 

[Tony Towner's Fridge]

I actually believe their story.

Are you Comrade Jeremy in disguise?

Putin really is up there isn't he? In my opinion a far more dangerous being than Trump or Kim.

In 5 years time when the Baltic states are once again overrun by the Russians I can just hear him telling the Soviet TV that the Red Army was just on holiday and decided to stay there.

This needs to be elevated to a very high diplomatic and economic sanction level....with the serious re-armament that has gone on under Putin in the last decade, their nationalistic and quite fascist aims are there for all to see.

Worrying....they need a smack down!

Either that or we just elect Leon Corbyn and just make GB an annex of Soviet Empire..'BellaBritain' anyone?



TNBA

TTF

 

[carlzeiss]

Full interview here ,

[yt]Ku8OQNyI2i0[/YT]

 

[Juan Albion]

View attachment 100548

Spotted these tourists in London today.

Only one white one. London is lost.

 

[Easy 10]

Absolute proof of guilt can only be established in a court, which will be impossible as these two are never going to stand trial in this country, but that doesn't stop us as rational human beings realising that the only plausible explanation can be that these chaps and the Russia state are guilty as hell!

So far we have:
A nerve agent developed in the soviet union used against a ex Russian spy. i.e. a motive and means.
Previous of similar Russian assassinations against ex-spies carried out in this county using unorthodox means i.e. Litvanenko.
Previous of Russian denials and non-cooperation and a laissez faire attitude to these assassinations despite there being significant evidence (don't forget in the case of Litvanenko the evidence was assessed by way of a public enquiry yet one of the suspects was made a hero in Russia given a medal and later made an MP).
2 male suspects that travelled from Russia to Salisbury on passports with near consecutive serial numbers for 48 hours, stayed in a inconvenient hotel in East London and made a trip to Salisbury on the day before and the day of the attack, captured on CCTV near to the Skripals house at the time of the attack.
Hardened men from Russian a country that regularly sees temperatures well below zero that were apparently put off from travelling to stone henge by a small amount of snow!
Traces of Novichok in their hotel room
Intelligence linking them to the Russian security services
A completely laughable staged interview which would like us to believe that these men went to all that trouble to see the spire of salisbury cathedral and for some inexplicable unexplained reason took a wander near the Skripals house at the time of the attack.

What makes this even funnier is that the conspiracy nuts like you who are still questioning the above evidence as not being comprehensive enough are happy to come up with there own theories of world wide conspiracies based on 'evidence' that they have gleaned from the comfort of their bedroom primarily by watching Youtube videos!

I was getting increasingly perplexed by [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] 's doubts and assertions, given what we now know as fact, and you've pretty much nailed it all there chap. Primarily, two Russian nationals just happened to be mincing around Salisbury, of all places, on the day before and after the attack on a former russian intelligence officer, with a completely flimsy reason for being there that simply does not stack up to the slightest scrutiny given their actual movements.

They'll never see the inside of a British courthouse so its all moot, I expect they'll "disappear" before the year is out, never to be heard of again. Thats how russians operate. But holy hecking to shite, if I was ever on a jury with this case, from what we know so far I think I would be beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[clapham_gull]

If anyone wondered what the alt-right were all about do nothing more than read the posts above.

It's an odd type of nationalism and conspiracy theory with it's head up Putin's arse.

Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk

 

[dingodan]

I was getting increasingly perplexed by [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] 's doubts and assertions, given what we now know as fact, and you've pretty much nailed it all there chap. Primarily, two Russian nationals just happened to be mincing around Salisbury, of all places, on the day before and after the attack on a former russian intelligence officer, with a completely flimsy reason for being there that simply does not stack up to the slightest scrutiny given their actual movements.

They'll never see the inside of a British courthouse so its all moot, I expect they'll "disappear" before the year is out, never to be heard of again. Thats how russians operate. But holy hecking to shite, if I was ever on a jury with this case, from what we know so far I think I would be beyond reasonable doubt.

I think people are slightly misunderstanding my point.

I don't begrudge anyone in thinking that it looks really likely that these two guys are Russian agents and are responsible for what happened. I tend to think the same. But I am also willing to distinguish between "looks really likely" and "is definately true". All I have actually said is that it may not have been these guys, and while something only "looks really likely", then it's also "possibly not the case". When people talk about this like it's a sure thing, what they are effectively saying is that they are willing to believe something without sufficient evidence to prove it, and I think that's unhealthy if you have any interest in what is true.

I am seeing a lot of confirmation bias when people talk about this. That is unhealthy is all I am saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[Bry Nylon]

If anyone wondered what the alt-right were all about do nothing more than read the posts above.

It's an odd type of nationalism and conspiracy theory with it's head up Putin's arse.

Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk

Got home safe again?

 

[clapham_gull]

Got home safe again?

No......

I'm in Amsterdam, watching Question Time oddly drinking a Heineken BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEY SELL OUT HERE.

I been coming here the same time of year for the last 15 years and somehow managed to avoid a terrorist tonight AGAIN.

 

[clapham_gull]

Got home safe again?

Sorry, thank you the concern. I forgot the three rings Bry.

Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk

 

[Bry Nylon]

Sorry, thank you the concern. I forgot the three rings Bry.

I won't pretend I wasn't worried...

 

[Tony Towner's Fridge]

OK then F*** I*.....

I was going to Nice for a week next Wednesday for some Sun, Rose and fine Niceoise cuisine avec ambiance de Cote D'Azur....However , Vlad and his two chums have persuaded me to check into the Salisbury (know known as Hurrah-re!) Novatel for a week of inSpire-ational sightseeing. Let us spray!

TNBA

TTF

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

View attachment 100548

Spotted these tourists in London today.

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1040209234863042560?s=19

 

[Scampi]

I think people are slightly misunderstanding my point.

I don't begrudge anyone in thinking that it looks really likely that these two guys are Russian agents and are responsible for what happened. I tend to think the same. But I am also willing to distinguish between "looks really likely" and "is definately true". All I have actually said is that it may not have been these guys, and while something only "looks really likely", then it's also "possibly not the case". When people talk about this like it's a sure thing, what they are effectively saying is that they are willing to believe something without sufficient evidence to prove it, and I think that's unhealthy if you have any interest in what is true.

I am seeing a lot of confirmation bias when people talk about this. That is unhealthy is all I am saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Its amazing how you conspiracy theorists can only see confirmation bias in other people