Poyet is to blame for the clubs current position

[Iggle Piggle]

Absolute rot. The figures show we were in the bottom half of the table in the Championship in terms of budget for that season, yet we finished 4th and probably deserved to be promoted. He overachieved, but the club didn't want to meet his ambitions - hence his 'hit the ceiling' speech - a situation Oscar also clearly faced.

We had the 8th highest wage bill that season. Only Cardiff and Leicester had higher without parachute payments added to the mix. We lost £15 million quid as well.

It was also a ceiling £10 million higher than Derby and a couple of million higher than Palace. It amazes me that this myth still exists that the likes of PIG, Bridge, Vicente and Upson were some kind of Gus budget signings. We bet the house that year. And lost.

 

[El Presidente]

Yes, we should have been promoted under Gus, we had the momentum, there were so many positives around the club at that time, we were riding the euphoria of the Lge 1 win, the opening of the Amex, made some epic signings and were 'the' form team over the final two months of that season. Despite this we also signed Ulloa and were supposedly interested in VvD, so continued to back Gus while not breaking the bank. Yet Gus allowed the 'ceiling' issue to distract him at the most critical moment. So clearly Gus was already very aware of the budget constraints he was under. Gus wanted to be released from his contract in March but Tony rightly insisted that he honour it to the end of the season. Gus should have ensured that both he and his team gave 110% in those play offs. Promotion and that Prem Lge windfall would surely have allowed Tony to significantly loosen the purse strings and give Gus substantially more funds to play with.

However Gus conspicuously failed, which was grossly unprofessional, but hey ho, that's not unusual in football. I recall feeling sick that it was probably our best chance of promotion. Furthermore Gus turned the heads of key players, which impacted on his successor's reign, so 'yes' Gus is largely responsible for our current position. If I were Tony Bloom I would feel badly betrayed.

Oscar then took on the role, knowing the budget constraints after Gus's public 'ceiling' grievances and also had to rebuild morale with an injury hit squad - plus players whose heads were elsewhere.

Both Gus and Oscar knew that FFP was on the horizon so had to make the most of the resources they were given, while they could. Oscar did well to get us to the play offs again but we were unlucky with injuries plus a shade short in terms of depth and quality in the squad.

FFP is why Sami now has the most difficult challenge. Tony hasn't exactly failed to back him either - however we need a bigger bang for fewer bucks, there is no room for errors in the transfer market. We are up against even more clubs enjoying parachute payments. Getting to (and beyond) the play offs this season is not impossible, but would be a hell of an achievement.

What I don't understand, is if Gus was so distracted after asking to leave prior to the Palace game in March, is how we went on a ten match unbeaten run?

Poyet's comments after the playoff defeat were graceless, disrespectful (to TB) and churlish, but he was on his way from the day Paul Barber arrived, given the belief held by Poyet, rightly or wrongly,that Barber was behind Gus losing his job at Spurs.

 

[albionant]

He took a side from 21st in League 1 to the Championship playoffs. Under Poyet we were promoted from League 1 with six matches to go competing against teams with far bigger wage bills and better facilities, playing some of the best football I've seen in over 40 years watching the Albion.

People can't cope with us losing to Palace in the playoffs and his undignified comments at the end of the match. That doesn't undo all the good work he did for the club.

As for not wanting to go up, he was on a £500k bonus if we were promoted, I can't see why he would deliberately throw that away, as he still could have left the club in the summer for a bigger club, and with his reputation enhanced.

This is correct.
Poyet left due to the relationship break down between him and Barber.

 

[kevo]

We had the 8th highest wage bill that season.

And we finished 4th. Is that failure?

 

[El Presidente]

We had the 8th highest wage bill that season. Only Cardiff and Leicester had higher without parachute payments added to the mix. We lost £15 million quid as well.

It was also a ceiling £10 million higher than Derby and a couple of million higher than Palace. It amazes me that this myth still exists that the likes of PIG, Bridge, Vicente and Upson were some kind of Gus budget signings. We bet the house that year. And lost.

1: Derby only came 10th though, so not sure what point you are trying to make.
2: Why exclude those clubs who receive parachute payments? Hull received them and were promoted, and had a wage bill of £26 million compared to our £21 million, Cardiff didn't have them but spent £32 million on wages, Leicester spent £26 million and didn't make the playoffs. Forest spent the same as us and didn't make the playoffs. Wolves spent £31 million and were relegated.
3: If we bet the house and lost, why was our budget the same under Garcia as it had been under Gus? Surely if your claim is true we would have had no money to spend on wages last season, which counters what was said by Tony Bloom, are you saying he is lying?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Utter garbage. The only thing we can ever blame Poyet for is that he never got us over the line against palace in the play offs. If we had won that second leg we would have gone up and things would have been very different.

Indeed. Poyet gets a massive amount of blame for his sulks and shenanigans when it mattered most.

And then he was booted out, and it has all become ancient history.

We've had enough time to set things right now, so can't really blame him for any further shortcomings going forward.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

1: Derby only came 10th though, so not sure what point you are trying to make.
2: Why exclude those clubs who receive parachute payments? Hull received them and were promoted, and had a wage bill of £26 million compared to our £21 million, Cardiff didn't have them but spent £32 million on wages, Leicester spent £26 million and didn't make the playoffs. Forest spent the same as us and didn't make the playoffs. Wolves spent £31 million and were relegated.
3: If we bet the house and lost, why was our budget the same under Garcia as it had been under Gus? Surely if your claim is true we would have had no money to spend on wages last season, which counters what was said by Tony Bloom, are you saying he is lying?

For the first 2 points, Derby was just used as an example of an established Championship club. On this thread it's been asserted a few times by [MENTION=12101]Mellotron[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11720]kevo[/MENTION] that Poyet did not have a sizeable budget that year. He did. It was a vast improvement on the previous year and higher than most of our rivals without parachute aid or a level playing field if you prefer. I also think there was a perfect storm to get promoted that year. The 3 relegated clubs didn't make the play offs - Only Bolton even threatened it and as you say Wolves got relegated. Birmingham's 7th place wages were largely made up of Premier league has beens such as Zigic (notwithstanding they had Carston money laundering Yeoung in charge as well). For us, it was our last chance to throw cash at the problem before FFP kicked it. 'Overachievement' in the 12/13 season has been a word used on this thread. Par is more like it and that's before we mention 'that' game. Seasons 10/11 and 11/12, we could maybe have a different argument but our financial outlay in 12/13 largely matched our final position – There was no managerial miracle involved. At best you could argue he was +4 better than he should have been which given the chaos of the 4 mentioned teams above is pushing it.

On your 3rd point, I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion I'm accusing TB of lying. I was making the point he backed Poyet with his own pocket more than anything (and was constantly reminded it wasn't enough). What I would say is that there is no way we will lose anywhere near £15 million for the last financial year and I'd be surprised if he haven't slipped down from 8th place in the wages table. In time, It will probably be easier to argue that Oscar overachieved when the figures come out but I doubt anyone will bother partially because most of us have forgotten he was even here and also because he rarely, if ever, shot his mouth off about his 'mid table budget'

Lastly, you raise the question about how we went on a 10 match unbeaten run in 20/13 with Gus in a supposed sulk. We will never really know what went on (and I remain sceptical about some of the leaks from the club when managers leave as it seems all too convenient) but I think the underlying reason is that we had a bloody good team. Hammond, Bridcutt, Buckley, Ulloa, Upson and Barnes are all in the PL. Seems most of that team were Premier league ready.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Indeed. Poyet gets a massive amount of blame for his sulks and shenanigans when it mattered most.

And then he was booted out, and it has all become ancient history.

We've had enough time to set things right now, so can't really blame him for any further shortcomings going forward.

Exactly. Watford are on the verge of losing their 4th manager this season, but are still in third place.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Biggest mistake Poyet made, and I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it before……was letting Murray go.

 

[GT49er]

What I don't understand, is if Gus was so distracted after asking to leave prior to the Palace game in March, is how we went on a ten match unbeaten run?

A team full of premier league players, who are now playing in the top flight (the likes of which we can't afford now)?

 

[El Presidente]

A team full of premier league players, who are now playing in the top flight (the likes of which we can't afford now)?

So perhaps the finger should be pointed at the players then?

 

[El Presidente]

Exactly. Watford are on the verge of losing their 4th manager this season, but are still in third place.

Palace have had Freedman, Olly, Pulis and now Colin in two years.

 

[Mellotron]

For the first 2 points, Derby was just used as an example of an established Championship club. On this thread it's been asserted a few times by [MENTION=12101]Mellotron[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11720]kevo[/MENTION] that Poyet did not have a sizeable budget that year. He did. It was a vast improvement on the previous year and higher than most of our rivals without parachute aid or a level playing field if you prefer. I also think there was a perfect storm to get promoted that year. The 3 relegated clubs didn't make the play offs - Only Bolton even threatened it and as you say Wolves got relegated. Birmingham's 7th place wages were largely made up of Premier league has beens such as Zigic (notwithstanding they had Carston money laundering Yeoung in charge as well). For us, it was our last chance to throw cash at the problem before FFP kicked it. 'Overachievement' in the 12/13 season has been a word used on this thread. Par is more like it and that's before we mention 'that' game. Seasons 10/11 and 11/12, we could maybe have a different argument but our financial outlay in 12/13 largely matched our final position – There was no managerial miracle involved. At best you could argue he was +4 better than he should have been which given the chaos of the 4 mentioned teams above is pushing it.

On your 3rd point, I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion I'm accusing TB of lying. I was making the point he backed Poyet with his own pocket more than anything (and was constantly reminded it wasn't enough). What I would say is that there is no way we will lose anywhere near £15 million for the last financial year and I'd be surprised if he haven't slipped down from 8th place in the wages table. In time, It will probably be easier to argue that Oscar overachieved when the figures come out but I doubt anyone will bother partially because most of us have forgotten he was even here and also because he rarely, if ever, shot his mouth off about his 'mid table budget'

Lastly, you raise the question about how we went on a 10 match unbeaten run in 20/13 with Gus in a supposed sulk. We will never really know what went on (and I remain sceptical about some of the leaks from the club when managers leave as it seems all too convenient) but I think the underlying reason is that we had a bloody good team. Hammond, Bridcutt, Buckley, Ulloa, Upson and Barnes are all in the PL. Seems most of that team were Premier league ready.

El Presidente had the stats. We OVERACHIEVED in terms of league position vs. budget every single year under Gus. We were NOT free spending.

These are FACTS. #rafa

 

[GT49er]

So perhaps the finger should be pointed at the players then?

Not necessarily. It's just at that time, with prem. ready players all geared up, in form, and playing well together, they didn't need much managerial input. At that point, Poyet could probably have gone on holiday. Pity things went wrong on THAT day, when he was needed..............

 

[Iggle Piggle]

El Presidente had the stats. We OVERACHIEVED in terms of league position vs. budget every single year under Gus. We were NOT free spending.

These are FACTS. #rafa

If we weren't free spending how come we lost £15 MILLION POUNDS?

#Drevil

 

[spring hall convert]

I think it's largely the fans fault. This may get some thumbs down but due to the results we've had (4th and 6th) there's this automatic assumption that we should be better than that and we should be pissing this league, whilst doing a disservice to the other 23 clubs all vying for the same thing. We've done really, really well in the 3 years we've been in the league but we should never, ever presume that we have a right to be a certain place in the league.
We're in probably the most competitive league in the world and are what I would call an 'established' championship club who other teams respect and not necessarily enjoy playing due to our style and ability to harm them. All that doesn't mean we should go up and anything less is a failure.
We've seen in recent years Burnley be one of the favourite for relegation and go up automatically. We've seen Reading start badly and go up. We've seen Palace struggle one year and go up the next - it's the unpredictability that makes it so hard to call - the fact that 4 points separate the top 10 teams shows the task ahead for all clubs.
I always hold hope that we'll win every game, but I'm not going to level blame at any one person (whether that be past or present) for where we finish or where we are now. It is what it is and we deal with it at the time, whether we're 1st or 24th.

Well said.

 

[spring hall convert]

Is that the last three months of the season in which we went on a ten match unbeaten run?

And were playing by some distance our best football of the year.

 

[El Presidente]

If we weren't free spending how come we lost £15 MILLION POUNDS?

#Drevil

Top of the losses that season (£'million)

Blackburn 28.6
Bolton 27.4
Cardiff 42.0
Hull 32.6
Leicester 23.2
Middlesboro 16.1
Forest 16.4
Albion 14.7

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If we weren't free spending how come we lost £15 MILLION POUNDS?

#Drevil

Ken Brown overstocking the shop to the point where it was practically being given away on the concourses, overstaffing where 18 middle management had to be made redundant with payoffs.
Transport costs in the first season costing over 1 million where fans didn't buy the travel vouchers thereby cheating the club.

The losses were not all down to the playing budget.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Not necessarily. It's just at that time, with prem. ready players all geared up, in form, and playing well together, they didn't need much managerial input. At that point, Poyet could probably have gone on holiday. Pity things went wrong on THAT day, when he was needed..............

Lol if it was so simple...good players in a side and they don't need a manager ..hmmm