[News] Post Office Scandal -

[beorhthelm]

And because the disfunction of the Post Office, the branch managers weren't robbed....

The Post Office was "robbed".

..of virtual money made up by the Horizon system that didn't exist.

And That's the thing I haven't been able to find an answer for. Why didn't the Post Office organisation notice that ?

i've seen some reference to this point, without answer, Post Office had a surplus and seems no one put two and two together. it's also raised that the subpostmaster end didnt have a buffer account to hold funds until queries resolved. basic process flaws were baked in.

 

[rippleman]

Let's be clear, I'm absolutely not saying "No Post Office investigator will have had anything to do with this"

What I'm saying is that in the newly-acquired rush to put things right, the outcry to find those responsible and, from some quarters, a desire to find some scapegoats to pin the whole thing on, care needs to be taken to not ruin further lives by blaming people who may, legitimately, just have been doing their job as best they could, and will now share our horror at what was actually playing out.

I'm not so sure that it is a question of looking for "scapegoats" but more a question of ensuring those who were responsible for the harrassment and persecution of the innocent are held accountable for their actions and are sanctioned / punished accordingly.

Nobody wants the innocentr to be sanctioned or punished but this was clearly a conspiracy (a la the police at Hilsborough) and those senior managers / investigators who were responsible for pursuing the postmasters/mistresses despite being aware of the problems with Horizon should not be able to just walk away with their pensions and reputations intact.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I remember some management couse I went on the speaker said that quite a few executive in top management positions exhibit sociopathic tendancies including lack of empathy and no remorse over the consequences of their actions. It seems to me when reading some of the details about the way in which the Post Office handled this situation that this is the case here

 

[Seagull58]

I do wonder whether it comes down to there being only a relatively small number of people who knew the whole picture, and the scale of what was happening. I can only speak from my experience of working at RM obviously, but the organisation is an absolute beast and is fairly siloed in certain areas (not in a sinister way, more just sometimes teams not communicating with other teams as effectively as possible), so I'm wondering whether the same could/can be said of PO. It's not me defending the actions of anyone clearly, but more wondering whether a lot of people indirectly involved in some way didn't have a full enough picture to really twig what was happening.

As I say, let's hope we get the full truth (or as close as we can to that).

I'm sure your'e correct inthat only a few people knew the scale of the dishonesty I would bet that the remote access team had no idea that they didn't exist and that fact was confirmed in a court of law.

 

[timbha]

I remember some management couse I went on the speaker said that quite a few executive in top management positions exhibit sociopathic tendancies including lack of empathy and no remorse over the consequences of their actions. It seems to me when reading some of the details about the way in which the Post Office handled this situation that this is the case here

So true. Narcissists

 

[A mex eyecan]

so if ’people’ prosecuting earned bonuses for convictions and those convictions go on to be found unsound or just plain wrong, then should those ‘people’ be forced to pay back the bonuses as the prosecution is at that point proven unsuccessful.

 

[marlowe]

I see your point but how broad a view do you need to not think something is amiss? A ridiculous number of sub postmasters all of sudden go rogue?

With particular regard to the post office investigation teams it was revealed on breakfast TV this morning that some were offered effectively bonuses for successful prosecutions.

That's deplorable. There should never in any circumstance be a financial incentive to pursue and secure a successful prosecution. Imagine if the police or individual officers were given conviction related bonuses. The only thing it incentivises is negligence, dishonesty and corruption.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I remember some management couse I went on the speaker said that quite a few executive in top management positions exhibit sociopathic tendancies including lack of empathy and no remorse over the consequences of their actions. It seems to me when reading some of the details about the way in which the Post Office handled this situation that this is the case here

I'm sure that many of us have experienced that type of person in many walks of life, I know that I have - unfortunately.

 

[Seagull58]

I have wondered the same thing. Surely the overall PO accounts would have shown that?

The PO company accounts would not have had any automatic synchronisation with Horizon, which was purely for subpostmasters. Accounting figures would have been taken from Horizon and manually entered into the PO accounting system. The stock figures entered into the PO system would have been the Horizon figures. Any mismatches with the subpostmasters' stock figures would have been put into a suspense account in the PO system and then recovered by making the subpostmasters "repay the the stolen money".
Edit: writing off "wastage" is normal practise in retail where 5% of the inventory typically "disappears".

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's deplorable. There should never in any circumstance be a financial incentive to pursue and secure a successful prosecution. Imagine if the police or individual officers were given conviction related bonuses. The only thing it incentivises is negligence, dishonesty and corruption.

Rev Coles has been watching the inquiry this morning questioning an investigator. The thread and answers are fairly enlightening. 'Mafia gangster' Not my job to question it.

Politics latest: Post Office investigators accused of behaving like 'mafia gangsters'

Westminster has been dominated by the Post Office scandal this week, and the ongoing inquiry is today hearing from investigator Stephen Bradshaw, who has denied behaving like a "mafia gangster" towards sub-postmasters. Follow updates in the Politics Hub and watch live in the video below.

news.sky.com

 

[portlock seagull]

From the BBC. This Stephen Bradshaw guy sounds like just the type who so many complained about. Hope he’s prosecuted in good time, then well get to the truth. And there will be others no doubt like him.

Summary​

1. Stephen Bradshaw, a Post Office investigator, is giving evidence to the Post Office public inquiry - watch live by pressing play at the top of the page
2. He says he heard reports of problems with the Horizon software, but wasn't "technically minded... I would expect that to come from the people above"
3. "If there was an issue, I would expect Fujitsu to inform the Post Office, and the Post Office to let us know what the issues are," he says
4. He also says a statement he signed in 2012 - declaring the Post Office's "absolute confidence" in the software - was written by lawyers, not him
5. Bradshaw was previously described having "heavy footprints" on the issues - he was involved in the criminal investigation of nine sub-

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

The PO company accounts would not have had any automatic synchronisation with Horizon, which was purely for subpostmasters. Accounting figures would have been taken from Horizon and manually entered into the PO accounting system. The stock figures entered into the PO system would have been the Horizon figures. Any mismatches with the subpostmasters' stock figures would have been put into a suspense account in the PO system and then recovered by making the subpostmasters "repay the the stolen money".
Edit: writing off "wastage" is normal practise in retail where 5% of the inventory typically "disappears".

Horizon was/is installed in ALL Post Offices including main Crown ones. The system hardware/software is exactly the same.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This lawyer has written a long thread about the maze of complications around the compensation scheme, which he alleges is rigged.

 

[Simster]

From the BBC. This Stephen Bradshaw guy sounds like just the type who so many complained about. Hope he’s prosecuted in good time, then well get to the truth. And there will be others no doubt like him.

Summary​

1. Stephen Bradshaw, a Post Office investigator, is giving evidence to the Post Office public inquiry - watch live by pressing play at the top of the page
2. He says he heard reports of problems with the Horizon software, but wasn't "technically minded... I would expect that to come from the people above"
3. "If there was an issue, I would expect Fujitsu to inform the Post Office, and the Post Office to let us know what the issues are," he says
4. He also says a statement he signed in 2012 - declaring the Post Office's "absolute confidence" in the software - was written by lawyers, not him
5. Bradshaw was previously described having "heavy footprints" on the issues - he was involved in the criminal investigation of nine sub-

What?? A "post office investigator" who responds to reports of problems with "I wasn't technically minded... I would expect that to come from the people above" and then declared the Post Office's "absolute confidence" in the software but now blames in on lawyers?

Jesus fücking Christ. Get in the bin, you useless wet wipe.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Bradshaw reminds me a bit of Prince Andrew - How dare you ask me these questions, don't you know who I am ?

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Pretty clear that the PO workforce were all in their little silos within a very prescriptive culture. Seems endemic and a special measures case.

 

[clapham_gull]

Totally about the culture as mentioned above and everyone is responsible for that.

To me the affair is an interesting consideration when thinking about the "private" / "public" debate.

In reality there are still at best "institutionalised" or at worse festering basket case corners of the public services.

You'll never find an individual responsible, it's always someone else's fault and if in doubt blame somebody else, usually higher up than doesn't have a clue what you are doing anyway.

The entire investigation team needs to be immediately disbanded and paid off. It isn't fit for purpose.

All the PO needs to do is re-define the role and only employ ex-police officers.

 

[Bozza]

*Sigh*

This is a perfect example of how I always regret contributing to threads like these.

I'm not so sure that it is a question of looking for "scapegoats" but more a question of ensuring those who were responsible for the harrassment and persecution of the innocent are held accountable for their actions and are sanctioned / punished accordingly.

Nobody wants the innocentr to be sanctioned or punished but this was clearly a conspiracy (a la the police at Hilsborough) and those senior managers / investigators who were responsible for pursuing the postmasters/mistresses despite being aware of the problems with Horizon should not be able to just walk away with their pensions and reputations intact.

Yes, I've said 8-10 times, maybe more, on this very thread this morning that those at fault need to be found and punished appropriately. I've also suggested caution needs to be exercised in that process. The new, and quite correct, climate of increased focus on this has people in some quarters looking to apportion blame here, there and everywhere without due process.

And, given the increased scrutiny and police investigation, the potential outcomes for those responsible has probably significantly worsened. Given the apparent culture within the Post Office during the time of the Horizon failings, I don't think it's unlikely that some will be, frankly, shitting themselves right now and working out ways they can slopey shoulder the blame onto others.

Anyway, I'll return to a watching brief as I can't be arsed to keep trying to write posts like these.

 

[Triggaaar]

I do wonder whether it comes down to there being only a relatively small number of people who knew the whole picture, and the scale of what was happening. I can only speak from my experience of working at RM obviously, but the organisation is an absolute beast and is fairly siloed in certain areas (not in a sinister way, more just sometimes teams not communicating with other teams as effectively as possible), so I'm wondering whether the same could/can be said of PO. It's not me defending the actions of anyone clearly, but more wondering whether a lot of people indirectly involved in some way didn't have a full enough picture to really twig what was happening.

As I say, let's hope we get the full truth (or as close as we can to that).

Anyone working on the legal cases, telling the accused that they were the only one, knew they were doing wrong. And the same goes for those working at the help centre, telling postmasters that they were the only one. A lot of people knew they were doing something wrong, even if they didn't understand the full extent of it.

 

[Talby]

Totally about the culture as mentioned above and everyone is responsible for that.

To me the affair is an interesting consideration when thinking about the "private" / "public" debate.

In reality there are still at best "institutionalised" or at worse festering basket case corners of the public services.

You'll never find an individual responsible, it's always someone else's fault and if in doubt blame somebody else, usually higher up than doesn't have a clue what you are doing anyway.

The entire investigation team needs to be immediately disbanded, made reductant and paid off. It isn't fit for purpose.

All the PO needs to do is re-define the role and only employ ex-police officers.

Only employ ex Police Officers? Greatest respect but they’re hardly the beacon of hope they were intended to be. ‘They’re an ex officer’ isn’t exactly a great reference nowadays - and, that’s the point…they’re ex officers so they should adapt to a new culture. what makes them better than other people? Nothing.