[News] Post Office Scandal -

[Triggaaar]

Sorry @Triggaaar, just thought that may be down to incompetence from the system architect, but equally it may be User Requirement, cost prohibitive or any number of other reasons.

I'm not sure what you mean?

But I can't imagine it was designed and done for the criminal purposes for which it was eventually used.

Obviously not, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The article said that software engineer's (or whatever his title was) testimony was an important part of convicting people. Was the software engineer honest in court, or did he commit perjury (other people on the side of the PO did)? I obviously don't know, but I wouldn't want to rule anything out, and I don't like the idea that he can be asked about it and also be given immunity from anything he may have done wrong.

 

[Bozza]

My main take from today was that law firms/their client the PO relying on their advice, withheld documents/key information from defence teams for sub-postmasters. Failing to disclose is a criminal offence.

I wonder if some solicitors are craftily working out if they can retire early, cut and running before there are any effects on lucrative pension plans.

I looked up Cartwright King earlier today to find out more about them. The first thing I came across was this...

The Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) is going to have to wait until the end of the Post Office inquiry before it can take formal disciplinary action against any lawyers involved in the scandal, it has revealed.​

SRA forced to wait for end of Post Office inquiry to take action

The Solicitors Regulation Authority is going to have to wait until the end of the Post Office inquiry before it can take formal disciplinary action against any lawyers involved in the scandal.

www.legalfutures.co.uk

And before anyone says anything they may regret about this legal firm, they published a statement today. They were acquired a while back and none of the lawyers involved in the Horizon scandal remain there...

Statement on the Post Office Scandal

Between 1999 and 2015, the Post Office prosecuted 700 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses based on information from a computer system called Horizon.

cartwrightking.co.uk

 

[Arkwright]

I watched the drama over the last couple of nights .

I’m sure I’m missing something but can anyone explain this for me;

I understand the Horizon software concluded that they were X number of pounds in deficit. And this happened daily , or whenever they submit their accounts .

But how come the subpostmasters didn’t also do a physical stock take and thus prove that Horizon was incorrect?

Surely a hand-count of stock sold against the money in their till would have quickly proven the machine was at fault?

If stock sold / services provided married up with money taken. Where’s the issue?

Is it that simple?

We balanced the office every day at close of business to complete all remittances of cheques, deposits, ect.
Weekly a full balance of cash and all stock (stamps, postal orders, ect).
Monthly a full balance from which branch figures and commissions due were calculated.
Any shortages or overs had to be resolved in order to roll the balancing periods over to the next month.

 

[WATFORD zero]

We balanced the office every day at close of business to complete all remittances of cheques, deposits, ect.
Weekly a full balance of cash and all stock (stamps, postal orders, ect).
Monthly a full balance from which branch figures and commissions due were calculated.
Any shortages or overs had to be resolved in order to roll the balancing periods over to the next month.

Was this pre-Horizon ?

 

[jessiejames]

Only just taking an intrest in this, so could someone just dumb it down for me.
1 did all these incidents happen in the same year?
2 the missing money was not missing, hiwever some sub postmasters paid the shortful. Where did this money go.?
3 if that money ended up as profit for the post office, how is this not picked up by the accountants?

 

[Arkwright]

Was this pre-Horizon ?

No, during my time with the PO only used Horizon.
Did have to lick stamps...

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, during my time with the PO only used Horizon.
Did have to lick stamps...

And you had no problems with it ? (I'm sure there were many who didn't but it does appear to be luck).

And didn't your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth

 

[Weststander]

I looked up Cartwright King earlier today to find out more about them. The first thing I came across was this...

The Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) is going to have to wait until the end of the Post Office inquiry before it can take formal disciplinary action against any lawyers involved in the scandal, it has revealed.​

SRA forced to wait for end of Post Office inquiry to take action

The Solicitors Regulation Authority is going to have to wait until the end of the Post Office inquiry before it can take formal disciplinary action against any lawyers involved in the scandal.

www.legalfutures.co.uk

And before anyone says anything they may regret about this legal firm, they published a statement today. They were acquired a while back and none of the lawyers involved in the Horizon scandal remain there...

Statement on the Post Office Scandal

Between 1999 and 2015, the Post Office prosecuted 700 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses based on information from a computer system called Horizon.

cartwrightking.co.uk

Administration, predictable really.

That cannot provide a protective veil for individuals from The Law Society or Police/DPP for (alleged) criminal offences.

 

[Weststander]

Only just taking an intrest in this, so could someone just dumb it down for me.
1 did all these incidents happen in the same year?
2 the missing money was not missing, hiwever some sub postmasters paid the shortful. Where did this money go.?
3 if that money ended up as profit for the post office, how is this not picked up by the accountants?

The faulty system ran from 1999 to 2015.

The system overstated PO takings for the day, giving the false impression that sub-postmasters or their staff had misappropriated the difference over what was physically held/banked in cash and stock.

The accounts would’ve been based on Horizon’s falsely high income readings.

 

[clapham_gull]

Manual? Not a chance ....

mmmmm....

I've witnessed a couple of global systems where the company has ended up employing cheap off shore data entry clerks to fix the data manually.

Can't remember where I read it, but apparently there was a large degree of manual override at PO HQ.

I'm not suggesting your experience of other systems is different, but this looks like a complete shit show and I've seen them.

 

[Arkwright]

And you had no problems with it ? (I'm sure there were many who didn't but it does appear to be luck).

And didn't your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth

Maybe we were lucky but no issues. Previously said know someone who did, rolling over bigger and bigger deficits until it all got out of hand.
One thing that is hardly mentioned is what did the Federation of Post Masters do to represent it's membership, they must of been aware of the Fujitsu, Horizon, Post Office issues.
We were told that each lick of a stamp was 3 calories, a lit of licking when the system went down.

 

[cjd]

Only just taking an intrest in this, so could someone just dumb it down for me.
1 did all these incidents happen in the same year?
2 the missing money was not missing, hiwever some sub postmasters paid the shortful. Where did this money go.?
3 if that money ended up as profit for the post office, how is this not picked up by the accountants?

It happened over a number of years.

Probably the money went into a suspense account or something similar.

Never mind the accountants....take a good look at the legal boys.

It's often given me a wry smile when I see recruitment agents slated, or Estate agents slated , traffic wardens etc etc. The list is endless.etc etc etc

For more years than I care to remember, solicitors and lawyers have long been at the top of my list of absolute scum of the earth.

 

[jessiejames]

The faulty system ran from 1999 to 2015.

The system overstated PO takings for the day, giving the false impression that sub-postmasters or their staff had misappropriated the difference over what was physically held/banked in cash and stock.

The accounts would’ve been based on Horizon’s falsely high income readings.

Cheers.

 

[jessiejames]

It happened over a number of years.

Probably the money went into a suspense account or something similar.

Never mind the accountants....take a good look at the legal boys.

It's often given me a wry smile when I see recruitment agents slated, or Estate agents slated , traffic wardens etc etc. The list is endless.etc etc etc

For more years than I care to remember, solicitors and lawyers have long been at the top of my list of absolute scum of the earth.

Cheers

 

[Weststander]

Just watched episode 1 of the ITV depiction. It’s brilliant, capturing the very human story.

 

[maffew]

What went wrong with Horizon: learning from the Post Office Trial

This Post Office trial has revealed what is likely the largest miscarriage of justice in UK legal history. Hundreds of individuals who operated Post Office branches (subpostmasters) were convicted on fraud and theft charges on the basis of missing funds identified by the Horizon accounting system. T

www.benthamsgaze.org

This is worth a read for anyone wanting to understand on the technical failings of the system, seems it failed the ACID test plus other issues with distributed systems etc..

 

[maffew]

Just watched episode 1 of the ITV depiction. It’s brilliant, capturing the very human story.

I had a tear in my eye by the second episode

 

[timbha]

If it hasn’t already been mentioned it’s worth watching BBC’s Panorama from a year or so ago and repeated last night. As a documentary it compliments ITVs drama, albeit with real people.

 

[portlock seagull]

If it hasn’t already been mentioned it’s worth watching BBC’s Panorama from a year or so ago and repeated last night. As a documentary it compliments ITVs drama, albeit with real people.

Thanks for posting. I’ll download and watch that, wasn’t aware of.

 

[portlock seagull]

What went wrong with Horizon: learning from the Post Office Trial

This Post Office trial has revealed what is likely the largest miscarriage of justice in UK legal history. Hundreds of individuals who operated Post Office branches (subpostmasters) were convicted on fraud and theft charges on the basis of missing funds identified by the Horizon accounting system. T

www.benthamsgaze.org

This is worth a read for anyone wanting to understand on the technical failings of the system, seems it failed the ACID test plus other issues with distributed systems etc..

Technical failings produced by human failures. Who were richly rewarded for. Sickening.