[News] Post Office Scandal -

[Kinky Gerbil]

Two Fujitsu staff were arrested for perjury two years ago. Two PO staff were questioned under caution two weeks ago. If the Met does their job properly they will end up with the senior people who led and signed off on the cover up.

Dupe

 

[portlock seagull]

The very unpleasant aspect of this story IMO is how the PO went about pursuing ‘theft and fraud.’

The very manner and conduct was shameful, beginning with the lie “it’s only you”

I hope these persons are also prosecuted, or at least publicly reprimanded. They ruined lives, and have blood on their hands. It’s not just the generals, but the captains too.

 

[rippleman]

Dominic Grieve KC, former Attorney General, is unsettled about the mass exoneration by the government, and a quick fix payment of compensation.
I can understand his point of view because it means Parliament is overriding the law, and judges, but there again the law has been used against the innocent people.
It has taken far too long but a quick fix isn't going to get to the bottom of the matter as to who should be prosecuted for gross negligence.
The government is wanting to stick an elastoplast over the problem, say there there, and here's some money to make up for it.

It's a mess. A complicated nasty tangle of a mess, and some of the spiders in the messed up web are just going to move on.

I also am uncomfortable about using legisaltion to overturn the decisions of the Courts.

How difficult could it be to find a few Appeal Court judges to work a full day and hear all the appeals? The clerk announces the case. The CPS offers no evidence. The judge quashes the conviction. I reckon each judge could get through 20 an hour.

My concern is that these Tory bastards are setting a precedent to over-rule the decisions of Courts in the future. It's a dangerous step and I don't like it at all.

 

[Bozza]

Can be watched live here-

Starting with Stephen Bradshaw who was a Post Office Investigator.
Post Mistress on TV said she will be in the session today listening to how many times he will say "I don't recall"

Thanks for the link.

Care has to be taken to not demonise anyone who worked on and around the Horizon system.

For example, I could imagine that someone who had the job of investigating potential theft/fraud day-to-day may not have any visibility of systems issues that could be causing some of the cases they were involved in. And if you are just moving from one investigation to another, you also may not have a broad enough view to be able to identify patterns that should make someone think "Hang on - something strange is going on here."

 

[METALMICKY]

One of them is now only going to agree with giving evidence if he is immune from prosecution.

Unbelievable! Whilst it sounds like the stuff of movies how do we not know that the senior management at Fujitsu might just pay someone off further down the ladder to carry the can for them? Here's a big chunk of cash, it's a white collar crime and they are hardly off to Wormwood Scrubs for a 10 stretch!

 

[Bozza]

Unbelievable! Whilst it sounds like the stuff of movies

...or an ITV drama?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The very unpleasant aspect of this story IMO is how the PO went about pursuing ‘theft and fraud.’

The very manner and conduct was shameful, beginning with the lie “it’s only you”

I hope these persons are also prosecuted, or at least publicly reprimanded. They ruined lives, and have blood on their hands. It’s not just the generals, but the captains too.

One of the aspects I find most distressing and distasteful is the Horizon Helpline. All these poor honest people innocently contacting the helpline for a bit of support and assistance re their unexplained losses and instead unwittingly flagging themselves up to an underhand form of entrapment. Disgusting doesn't begin to cover it

 

[METALMICKY]

Thanks for the link.

Care has to be taken to not demonise anyone who worked on and around the Horizon system.

For example, I could imagine that someone who had the job of investigating potential theft/fraud day-to-day may not have any visibility of systems issues that could be causing some of the cases they were involved in. And if you are just moving from one investigation to another, you also may not have a broad enough view to be able to identify patterns that should make someone think "Hang on - something strange is going on here."

I see your point but how broad a view do you need to not think something is amiss? A ridiculous number of sub postmasters all of sudden go rogue?

With particular regard to the post office investigation teams it was revealed on breakfast TV this morning that some were offered effectively bonuses for successful prosecutions.

 

[Bozza]

I see your point but how broad a view do you need to not think something is amiss? A ridiculous number of sub postmasters all of sudden go rogue?

With particular regard to the post office investigation teams it was revealed on breakfast TV this morning that some were offered effectively bonuses for successful prosecutions.

Let's be clear, I'm absolutely not saying "No Post Office investigator will have had anything to do with this"

What I'm saying is that in the newly-acquired rush to put things right, the outcry to find those responsible and, from some quarters, a desire to find some scapegoats to pin the whole thing on, care needs to be taken to not ruin further lives by blaming people who may, legitimately, just have been doing their job as best they could, and will now share our horror at what was actually playing out.

 

[Talby]

Thanks for the link.

Care has to be taken to not demonise anyone who worked on and around the Horizon system.

For example, I could imagine that someone who had the job of investigating potential theft/fraud day-to-day may not have any visibility of systems issues that could be causing some of the cases they were involved in. And if you are just moving from one investigation to another, you also may not have a broad enough view to be able to identify patterns that should make someone think "Hang on - something strange is going on here."

That’s a reasonable point but it all goes back to the fact of the matter which is ‘where did the money go?’. Strikes me these investigations were reliant on fear of prison, rather than proof of guilt. reputationally you’ve asked us to tread carefully, which I think is correct - but that horse has bolted in terms of public outrage.

 

[Bozza]

That’s a reasonable point but it all goes back to the fact of the matter which is ‘where did the money go?’. Strikes me these investigations were reliant on fear of prison, rather than proof of guilt. reputationally you’ve asked us to tread carefully, which I think is correct - but that horse has bolted in terms of public outrage.

You'll see above that I'm not making any suggestion about any or all of the PO investigators.

I'm merely saying that with the level of scrutiny on this now, and the desire to put things right, care has to be taken to not cast the truly innocent as culpable. Because doing that is what got us here in the first place.

 

[Talby]

You'll see above that I'm not making any suggestion about any or all of the PO investigators.

I'm merely saying that with the level of scrutiny on this now, and the desire to put things right, care has to be taken to not cast the truly innocent as culpable. Because doing that is what got us here in the first place.

Apologies, you didn’t. I definitely did. The whole thing is a merry mess, regrettably it’ll come down to ‘association with’.

 

[The Clamp]

I watched the drama over the last couple of nights .

I’m sure I’m missing something but can anyone explain this for me;

I understand the Horizon software concluded that they were X number of pounds in deficit. And this happened daily , or whenever they submit their accounts .

But how come the subpostmasters didn’t also do a physical stock take and thus prove that Horizon was incorrect?

Surely a hand-count of stock sold against the money in their till would have quickly proven the machine was at fault?

If stock sold / services provided married up with money taken. Where’s the issue?

Is it that simple?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I think there are two distinct things at play here...

1. Trying to put right the wrongs to those affected. In short: Quash the convictions and give them cash. For many, sadly, it's too late and for those still alive, nothing can really put things right, but "we are where we are" and we have to do what we can.

2. Identify how it happened and hold those responsible to account.

The first can and should be done as quickly as possible. The second is likely to take longer, and should be given the full time required.

I agree, but it's taken over 20 years so far, and I can see a repeat of the covid enquiry where messages, phones and records can't be found. Call me cynical.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I watched the drama over the last couple of nights .

I’m sure I’m missing something but can anyone explain this for me;

I understand the Horizon software concluded that they were X number of pounds in deficit. And this happened daily , or whenever they submit their accounts .

But how come the subpostmasters didn’t also do a physical stock take and thus prove that Horizon was incorrect?

Surely a hand-count of stock sold against the money in their till would have quickly proven the machine was at fault?

If stock sold / services provided married up with money taken. Where’s the issue?

Is it that simple?

Simply put, they did, but were told they were wrong and had to put it right. Jo Hamilton witnessed the figures changing before her eyes, and was told she was seeing things.
The chap from the PO Union saw it at Fujitsu's offices, but later they denied he was even there, altering the visitors book. Luckily he had kept the email inviting him.
Lies and cover ups. Bullying and coercion. Plead guilty and you'll be spared jail.

It is in the press today, the Post Office investigators were paid a bonus for every conviction, so it was in their interests to withhold advice, saying but you're the only one this is happening too.

 

[Bozza]

I agree, but it's taken over 20 years so far, and I can see a repeat of the covid enquiry where messages, phones and records can't be found. Call me cynical.

Like many, I guess, I've not been following this closely before the last week or so. But, from those who have, it sounds like your cynicism is well-placed as there have already been examples of potentially intentional obfuscation during the course of the Public Inquiry.

But, I don't think that wasn't really the focal point of what we were discussing, where I was replying to your bit here:

It has taken far too long but a quick fix isn't going to get to the bottom of the matter as to who should be prosecuted for gross negligence.​

The government is wanting to stick an elastoplast over the problem, say there there, and here's some money to make up for it.​

​

I think "quick fixes" for those so badly-wronged is exactly what we should be seeking. As you say, it's all taken far too long, but that can't be changed now, so let's strike off the convictions and try to make financial compensation as best we can.

And, as a separate exercise, use every means possible to bring to justice those responsible.

 

[DFL JCL]

I don't understand why from a compensation perspective they are differentiating between those convicted and those not. Surely everyone involved has suffered damages above and beyond that of the money PO forced them to pay back.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I watched the drama over the last couple of nights .

I’m sure I’m missing something but can anyone explain this for me;

I understand the Horizon software concluded that they were X number of pounds in deficit. And this happened daily , or whenever they submit their accounts .

But how come the subpostmasters didn’t also do a physical stock take and thus prove that Horizon was incorrect?

Surely a hand-count of stock sold against the money in their till would have quickly proven the machine was at fault?

If stock sold / services provided married up with money taken. Where’s the issue?

Is it that simple?

My understanding from my friend is that pre-horizon all transactions were recorded on paperwork thus allowing the branch to fully reconcile each day and pick up errors. When the system was introduced the only recording was on the computer. The system didn't allow the branch to download a full report of activity. It produced a figure and that was that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't understand why from a compensation perspective they are differentiating between those convicted and those not. Surely everyone involved has suffered damages above and beyond that of the money PO forced them to pay back.

True. Some people were so horrified at shortfalls, they used their savings and relatives' savings to clear them. Basically they were robbed.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Like many, I guess, I've not been following this closely before the last week or so. But, from those who have, it sounds like your cynicism is well-placed as there have already been examples of potentially intentional obfuscation during the course of the Public Inquiry.

But, I don't think that wasn't really the focal point of what we were discussing, where I was replying to your bit here:

It has taken far too long but a quick fix isn't going to get to the bottom of the matter as to who should be prosecuted for gross negligence.​

The government is wanting to stick an elastoplast over the problem, say there there, and here's some money to make up for it.​

​

I think "quick fixes" for those so badly-wronged is exactly what we should be seeking. As you say, it's all taken far too long, but that can't be changed now, so let's strike off the convictions and try to make financial compensation as best we can.

And, as a separate exercise, use every means possible to bring to justice those responsible.

The buck does need to stop somewhere. There's an awful lot of 'I'm not technical enough'/I'm too technical'/'I was only following orders'. But somebody had the big picture