The Clamp
Well-known member
Mental health issues. He is clearly nowhere near Afghanistan. Looks like a spare room at his Mum’s. Very strange boy.
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[TV] O/T Beginning of Afghanistan War
- Thread starter LVGull
- Start date
Mental health issues. He is clearly nowhere near Afghanistan. Looks like a spare room at his Mum’s. Very strange boy.
Not sure that's one hundred percent accurate. Many were definitely recruited from the Mujahideen, but it isn;t the same people en mass.
Good, short summary of the recent history here for anyone interested - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-key-facts-islamic-militant-group-2021-08-15/
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 12,323
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace breaks down admitting "some people won't get back" from Afghanistan and "it's sad that the West has done what's it's done."
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- Oct 17, 2008
- 15,023
It's the fall of Saigon all over again...
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 12,323
Kabulov has said that the Russian ambassador to Afghanistan, Dmitry Zhirnov, will meet a Taliban representative on Tuesday to discuss security for the diplomatic mission, adding that the outside perimeter of the embassy is already being guarded by the Taliban.
Kabulov also said that the Taliban’s swift takeover of the Afghan capital was “somewhat unexpected.” He said Russia was “too optimistic in our assessment of the quality of the armed forces trained by the Americans and NATO.” Kabulov said of those forces, “They dropped everything at the first shot.”
Russia rubbing their hands in glee..
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Kabulov also said that the Taliban’s swift takeover of the Afghan capital was “somewhat unexpected.” He said Russia was “too optimistic in our assessment of the quality of the armed forces trained by the Americans and NATO.” Kabulov said of those forces, “They dropped everything at the first shot.”
Russia rubbing their hands in glee..
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Wardy's twin
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 8,940
Totally agree - Taliban were a different group to Mujahideen and neither are/were homogeneous in their views or practices as they are divided into factions. The Taliban are certainly more fixed on a religious interpretation of the rules , the Mujahideen wanted self government , often at a regional level where they had ties to their tribe and local warlord. They were fighting each other for hundreds of years, then the British, then the Russia and then the west . In between times they fought their own governments and then back to fighting their neighbours.
The real causes for failure are Afghanistan is only nominally a 'country' it is a collection of very different peoples so national unity is not a strong concept but the real issue is that it takes many, many generations of internal stability and evolution to develop any concept of democracy. Afghanistan is a place where forward thinking liberal ideas such as equality and freedom of expression are totally alien. There will be many men in Afghanistan who will welcome the Taliban to establish a controlled framework of rule (sharia law) which they can understand and work to and which will put them above women.
Baker lite
Banned
nicko31
Well-known member
Does seem as though he's out there..
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15877617/brit-miles-routledge-stuck-kabul-afghanistan-holiday/
Probably get a gig on some reality game show soon, you know have f**ked up we are these days
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
The withdrawal agreement was made in February 2020 with Trump and Pompeo.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51689443
As part of that deal 5000 prisoners were released, some of whom are now fighting for the Taliban.
To put the blame wholly on Biden is disingenuous.
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Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Biden certainly doesn’t shoulder all the blame. Probably only a small fraction overall. However he is the current President and he has had no issue with reversing other poor decisions made by his incompetent predecessor. The buck stops with the guy in charge.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,378
Couldn't agree more, it is a shameful surrender, a total sell out to millions and a massive miscalculation.
The US is finished as the main superpower on the global stage. It has vacated the space for foreign influence/intervention for strategic/geo political gain, to Bejing and Moscow who will both gladly fill the vacuum from the fast fading US.
I cannot say I supported the war in Afghanistan, i didnt, though on the back of 9/11 and Bin ladens training camps being there, I could at least accept the rationale.
My brothers best man, a former army medic suffered horrific PTSD, due to having a friend/collegue have his head explode by a bullet less than a metre away from him, is one of many who genuinely served believing they were making a difference. Ultimately as the beheadings resume, as gay people are murdered, women are repressed and forbidden from education, it all would have been in vein. Tomahawks couldve dealth with the camps.
I get the argument, that it would always be a status quo and the west could never win.... but maybe that was a price worth paying to maintain a small presence to support the freedoms of those who dont follow extreme islam, for people to be free to be who they are, for the millions of women to have a chance and the freedom to choose.
How much more valuable is that than throwing money at basket case projects through the already slashed foreign aid budget. We paid the price, people died, we spent billions helping millions to have a future... all it took to maintain all of that and to buy the freedom of millions was a small rotating NATO troop presence to support the authorities.
Disgraceful that only now Bojo calls a cobra meeting, talk about close the door after the horse has bolted.
Why doesnt Johnson listen to the real men of conviction and courage, the military commanders and ex service people in this country.
Instead he's blindly following an old fool who is away with the fairies. A foreign police disaster, a moral disaster and a total sell out of million of Afghans and the families of those who sacrificed their children for nothing.
KeegansHairPiece
New member
- Jan 28, 2016
- 1,829
I've yet to read an alternative choice he had other than an unimaginable u-turn in not only committing huge numbers of US troops back in, but allies too. In terms of politics, you are effectively taking a decision like Brexit, and reversing it. Over 70% of Americans wanted their troops home. The buck stops with the guy in charge because the media of today needs a person to blame, rather than a truthful account of how we got to this point.
KeegansHairPiece
New member
- Jan 28, 2016
- 1,829
Listening to his own defence secretary could have been a start...
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Sorry, but much as I like the change in direction that has come from Biden’s victory I am not going to support this debacle. Biden certainly did have a choice. Too easy to blame the media. Biden is not immune from criticism and gets exactly the same flak from me as Trump would have done if still in charge.
*I'm no Biden masturbator but it was bound to happen with or without him. The US fought Soviet in what was labelled the "Soviet-Afghan war" but was really the US supporting a bunch of warlords (the mujahideen). Once the warlords had won, the ones in charge started to exploit the population in even larger extent than under Soviet rule, and they were split with the Taliban being the new fraction. They ****ed over the old mujahideens and took control over the country, much to US dismay.
In 2001, the US failed to recognize that the Talibans had a lot of support in the country and refused to negotiate with the Talibans on the basis that they had "no political influence", which was simply wrong. Once they had removed the Talibans from power, they put the same warlords who had once exploited the population in charge once again rather than trying to create something sustainable. As these old warlords are, in most cases, criminals and bandits, there are significant opposition against them, hence the very simply task for the Talibans to mobilize against them. While none of these sides are particularly desired, people have gone with what they think is the least worst option.
The mistakes/"mistakes" were made at least 20 years ago and has little to do with either Biden or Trump. The US twice put corrupt governments in charge of Afghanistan and the Taliban movements have both times been a response to this.
* this is the non-tinfoil, in reality I think the Talibans and the powers that be got a nice little agreement
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,754
I tend to agree.
Biden had a choice between two very bad outcomes.
He made a decision on the basis that the Afghan forces would at least hold the Taliban up long enough for some sort of negotiated power share deal to take place.
The opposite decision would have meant US troops committed there almost in perpetuity.
With hindsight that would have been the way to go, but he didn't have hindsight.
I feel terrible for the people who will now have to live in repression and danger of persecution under the Taliban. As I do for those in the many other countries who have to live under similarly authoritarian regimes
Raleigh Chopper
New member
"We are going to pull out, we have had plenty of notice, but before we do we had better get those that helped us the hell out of there, or they are going to be in a lot of trouble"
It doesn't sound too difficult to me, if any of those Afghans that helped the military are left behind to face the consequences, it will be despicable, you cannot trust The Taliban to carry out their promises, especially against women.
It doesn't sound too difficult to me, if any of those Afghans that helped the military are left behind to face the consequences, it will be despicable, you cannot trust The Taliban to carry out their promises, especially against women.
KeegansHairPiece
New member
- Jan 28, 2016
- 1,829
I'm not saying he should be immune, but what was the choice he had, baring in mind all the agreements / withdrawal treaties signed to date. Like I said, I haven't read a convincing case of what this 'certainly did have a choice' is?
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
185,000 Afghan military, trained, armed and equipped by the west, pretty much immediately down weapons in the face of 85,000 Taliban. These were the numbers quoted in the Sunday Times at the weekend.
20 years of huge investment and tragic loss. All for nothing.
20 years of huge investment and tragic loss. All for nothing.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,378
That simply isnt true Swanny. People never had a choice. They were oppressed completely under Taliban rule and executed if dissenting.
I do agree that from the beginning some form of national unity government wouldve had far more chances of long term sustainability/success, but that was always unrealistic and the Taliban were not intererested in that. They were fighting the Allied forces tooth and nail.
Just as you rightly cited, the US were funding/arming the Afghan Soviet resistance, inc Bin Laden when it suited them... not out of any other ideology than trying to bog down and damage their biggest political rival of the day.
And this exact same pattern has happened in reverse now. There were all sorts of evidential records that Russia was paying rewards to Taliban who killed US soldiers and just a month ago, Taliban leaders were in Beijing where I'm sure it was for more than just tea and biscuits.
Both China and Russia have a massive geo political vested interest to see the US fail (as they just have) and have almost certainly been aiding the Taliban I'd guess with arms, intelligence and tactical support. Not in support of the Taliban, but to further undermine the US and confidence in them.
And this moring the power behind the throne sits in Moscow and Bejing as Washington looks a weak laughing stock.
The people didnt choose this, this is proxy war. This is some of the desperate people trying to escape the barbarity of the Taliban.
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