Non Sport......How do you stand? Veil ban 2010 France.

[daveinprague]

It's DaveInPrague. I think his bizarre obsession with the far-right has blinded him to the bigger picture. He seems to think that we're just one Internet Saviour away from BNP/EDL sweeping to power in the UK.

No, i think they are laughable wankers, however they do try, to whip up hatred, and sometimes succeed.

Funny how my 'far right obsession' manifests itself on here during anti Islam obsession eh.

 

[Simster]

I mean the right in general... tbh, I would think the Telegraph people are the people most likely to be of the church going set, so yes, them...

In that case, my point stands. If this was a left/right wing debate, it would have ceased decades ago.

 

[Buzzer]

No, i think they are laughable wankers, however they do try, to whip up hatred, and sometimes succeed.

Funny how my 'far right obsession' manifests itself on here during anti Islam obsession eh.

The last laugh is on you then, seeing as how much time you spend trolling their websites. And you were the first one on here to specifically mention the far right and their take on this debate. Everyone else was happy to discuss it as women's rights/secular society v state religion issue. You're the one who brings the far-right into it. Funny that.

 

[daveinprague]

Yes, the same anti Islam sentiment, from the same people...funny that.

 

[pastafarian]

The main part of my point...at what level does this law break down...the law isnt specifically about Islamic veils, its about wearing a face covering of any sort in public... which is why I dont think the law is workable.

sweet!
so for example do you believe that specifically someone walking down the street on a brass monkeys freezing day with a scarf around their hooter will be stopped by the french rozzers and told to remove it?

 

[daveinprague]

Depends if there heading into a bank, railway station, bus-station, shop, airport...ive no idea...thats the point, how do you enforce such a law, with any crediblilty.
Would a veiled muslim woman be told to remove her face covering on a freezing day?
I just dont think its a workable law.

 

[Buzzer]

Yes, the same anti Islam sentiment, from the same people...funny that.

Come on...name names. I bet a good portion of those are the same that also give just as good about Christianity. If you weren't so impervious to rational debate you'd see Christianity being attacked equally as well.

That's your problem right there. Anyone who attacks anything about Islam must be Islamophobic (and probably a right-wing nutter by extension). Not anti-religion, not pro-equal rights. All you see is all you want to see - racists and right-wingers.

 

[Simster]

Come on...name names. I bet a good portion of those are the same that also give just as good about Christianity. If you weren't so impervious to rational debate you'd see Christianity being attacked equally as well.

That's your problem right there. Anyone who attacks anything about Islam must be Islamophobic (and probably a right-wing nutter by extension). Not anti-religion, not pro-equal rights. All you see is all you want to see - racists and right-wingers.

It's only a matter of time before thick dave tells us he doesn't believe his own laughably weak arguments and was only posting them to get a reaction. It's what he does every time he is shown up for his tiny intellect.

 

[daveinprague]

ooh er....


I dont consider my argument weak...I think its a daft law, thats unworkable...prove to me its workable...save me from being 'thick'.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Having respect for a culture does not mean you have to adopt their culture. I'm an ex-pat and I fully respect German culture but I don't walk around in leather shorts all day and I don't think my Teutonic friends expect me to.

But living in another European country you are hardly likely to look out of place I would suggest, unless you wore your leather shorts...... Would you adopt your normal attire in Pakistan for example?

 

[Nibble]

Depends if there heading into a bank, railway station, bus-station, shop, airport...ive no idea...thats the point, how do you enforce such a law, with any crediblilty.
Would a veiled muslim woman be told to remove her face covering on a freezing day?
I just dont think its a workable law.

(In French obviously) Excuse me Madame, please remove your head covering as we don't uphold the oppression of women here in the free world, have a nice day". Simple.

 

[pastafarian]

Depends if there heading into a bank, railway station, bus-station, shop, airport...ive no idea...thats the point, how do you enforce such a law, with any crediblilty.
Would a veiled muslim woman be told to remove her face covering on a freezing day?
I just dont think its a workable law.

most people could walk out of the cold into those establishments and take off the scarf covering their face,
how many veiled muslim women have that option?

 

[Brighton Breezy]

Can anyone explain why banning the veil and therefore further widening divisions between communities in this country will actually help those women who are being oppressed (which, I feel the need to add to my post, isn't everyone)?

The oppression of anyone is, of course, terrible and should be tackled head on by any civilised society. The oppression or women is not just a problem in some areas of the Muslim community. Plenty of non-Muslim women are oppressed, controlled and victims of abusive husbands. None of these women wear a veil but still the husbands control, abuse etc.

Banning the veil would do nothing to stop women being controlled. In those households where the veil is used as a tool of oppression, I imagine any ban would simply see them leaving the house an awful lot less. The beliefs, or rather the interpretation of them by individuals, would not change on bit.

This would actually make these women harder to engage with and support.

An overnight, blanket ban of the veil would actually, I believe, make these women harder to help and more isolated.

And that argument does not begin to take into account how ridiculous it is to ban an item of clothing which some people are happy to wear as an expression of their faith. And not just people who have "come over here and should adapt to our culture or go home" as some put it.

 

[daveinprague]

(In French obviously) Excuse me Madame, please remove your head covering as we don't uphold the oppression of women here in the free world, have a nice day". Simple.

But the law isnt about the Islamaic veil...its about ALL face covering in public.

 

[Nibble]

But the law isnt about the Islamaic veil...its about ALL face covering in public.

Well then the French are clearly displaying their characteristic cowardice again.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

There is no place for Islam in a modern, free thinking world. Islam is a repressive institution and should be thrown out of the UK.

I know a number of modern free-thinking liberal Muslims who might disagree with this sort of crass and silly sweeping generalisation. Why does everything have to be black or white. There are loads of shades of grey - a blooming sight more than the 50 in that silly book.

I was in France - visiting the pastor of a protestant Church and his family, at about the time they were introducing this law. The pastor thought it was wrong and that they should allow people the freedom to do what they want. The wife saw the burq'ha (or however it is spelt) as a symbol of male oppression and thought it should be banned.

I have also heard interviews on both sides of the channel with women who would maintain that they choose themselves to be this modest in their dress, and that it is nothing to do with their menfolk. In some cases, though, it is clearly a sign of oppression.

I am not a student of the Koran, but I also believe there is nothing specifically in there which advocates or prescribes the burq'ha. It just advocates modesty in dress, so this is a question of interpretation, a bit like arguments in the Church of England (of which I am not a member) about women priests/bishops, or in the wider church about gay marriage, where context and the zeitgeist might come in to play as well. In Christian Terms, although Paul was a hero and a stalwart of the early church, there would also be those who would say he was a misogynist.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The biggest myth is that the veils have anything to do with Islam. They are a cultural thing, not religious. One of the North African Muslim countries banned it as well because they didn't want "arab" culture flowing into their nation.

 

[Nibble]

I know a number of modern free-thinking liberal Muslims who might disagree with this sort of crass and silly sweeping generalisation. Why does everything have to be black or white. There are loads of shades of grey - a blooming sight more than the 50 in that silly book.

I was in France - visiting the pastor of a protestant Church and his family, at about the time they were introducing this law. The pastor thought it was wrong and that they should allow people the freedom to do what they want. The wife saw the burq'ha (or however it is spelt) as a symbol of male oppression and thought it should be banned.

I have also heard interviews on both sides of the channel with women who would maintain that they choose themselves to be this modest in their dress, and that it is nothing to do with their menfolk. In some cases, though, it is clearly a sign of oppression.

I am not a student of the Koran, but I also believe there is nothing specifically in there which advocates or prescribes the burq'ha. It just advocates modesty in dress, so this is a question of interpretation, a bit like arguments in the Church of England (of which I am not a member) about women priests/bishops, or in the wider church about gay marriage, where context and the zeitgeist might come in to play as well. In Christian Terms, although Paul was a hero and a stalwart of the early church, there would also be those who would say he was a misogynist.

Air pie

 

[pastafarian]

Does anyone know if the law has actually been enforced/ used? Is the the veil genuinely a thing of the past in France?

from what i have read about 200 have been stopped since the law was introduced,most have been asked to attend some sort of be a better french person class.A handful were charged by the police which were subsequently thrown out by judges on grounds they were not give the option of going to these classes.As of the last count 2 people have appeared before the court refusing to adhere to the law,which was basically a protest/test case.I am open to be corrected on these figures but i dont believe i am far off the mark,others of course will tell you the muslims in france are being persecuted and slaughtered in their thousands by the christian right wing devils.

 

[ROKERITE]

The French get so much wrong such as their massive, pampered public sector workforce; but their refusal to kowtow to Islam and their massive nuclear power programme are two things to admire.