Non Sport......How do you stand? Veil ban 2010 France.

[Bakero]

I'm not a lover of things french, but in light of terrorism risks in this day and age I totally agree with them. If it upsets peoples beliefs, they can always go back to their own country. This isn't meant to be provocative or racist but froggies gaff, their rules etc

Algeria was considered an integral part of France for over 100 years until the 1960s. Therefore, a lot of the Algerian immigrants were in fact born in 'France.' Of course, many of their descendants were born and raised in France proper; as were many of the descendants of other immigrants.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But living in another European country you are hardly likely to look out of place I would suggest, unless you wore your leather shorts...... Would you adopt your normal attire in Pakistan for example?

Yes I would adopt my normal summer wear in Pakistan. This is my point. Today I'm wearing Levi's 511 slim-fit Commuter shorts, Birkenstocks and a crappy old t-shirt and I reckon this would be suitable in said country?

 

[pastafarian]

And that argument does not begin to take into account how ridiculous it is to ban an item of clothing which some people are happy to wear as an expression of their faith. And not just people who have "come over here and should adapt to our culture or go home" as some put it.

as pointed out earlier this law is about banning all facial coverings and is not as some might claim a specific ban on certain religious clothing

 

[Brighton Breezy]

as pointed out earlier this law is about banning all facial coverings and is not as some might claim a specific ban on certain religious clothing

But realistically, as pointed out elsewhere, they are hardly going to use it to stop someone covering their face with a scarf day to day.

If someone is involved in a riot - they will cover their face regardless of this law and, if caught, the fact they've been rioting is probably enough law breaking to punish them for.

Any further punishment for the face covering is unlikely to be significant against having already been caught involved in hooliganism or rioting.

In reality, the people this law will impact most is sections of the country's Muslim community. Just because it is not a specific ban on the veil does not mean it is not necessary to consider the massive impact it will have on that community.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Air pie

What's that supposed to mean, other than you are so set in your ways and opinions that you will not listen to other people?

 

[BadFish]

I expect people to respect existing culture when visiting other countries. Would you adopt a Western style approach if you lived in a Muslim country (in terms of attire)?

I refuse to wear a singlet, stubbies, thongs and a hat with corks on it........I suppose I am just refusing to integrate

 

[RandyWanger]

Saw a Japanese tourist yesterday with one of those 'sars' masks on, wonder if anyone said anything to her.

 

[Nibble]

What's that supposed to mean, other than you are so set in your ways and opinions that you will not listen to other people?

If by holding a particular set of moral values that means I oppose the oppression of women then yes, I'm extremely set in my ways.

 

[BadFish]

Does anyone know if the law has actually been enforced/ used? Is the the veil genuinely a thing of the past in France?

Are you suggesting it is just a thinly veiled threat?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What about this lady and her permanent face covering? After the initial satisfaction of the ground breaking surgery this Frenchie is totally ****ed by this new law.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabelle_Dinoire

 

[pastafarian]

But realistically, as pointed out elsewhere, they are hardly going to use it to stop someone covering their face with a scarf day to day.

If someone is involved in a riot - they will cover their face regardless of this law and, if caught, the fact they've been rioting is probably enough law breaking to punish them for.

Any further punishment for the face covering is unlikely to be significant against having already been caught involved in hooliganism or rioting.

In reality, the people this law will impact most is sections of the country's Muslim community. Just because it is not a specific ban on the veil does not mean it is not necessary to consider the massive impact it will have on that community.

i agree up to a point but you cant get away from the fact we all know the french love a good riot,what is less known is that the police had little powers to ask people to remove facial coverings,they do now however.I cant see how it is a bad thing.
Only recently there was a thread about the march for england/EDL/UAF and there seemed to be near unanimous consensus that it was idiotic to allow the UAF thugs to run around smashing the town whilst wearing balaclavas

 

[drew]

As an indication of the way Islam perceives women. She was given a longer sentence than the man that raped her although it now appears that, in the face of international concern, she has been pardoned. However, the fact remains that, under their law, a women who is forced to have sex is considered to have had extra marital sex. Thought this was the 21st century!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

 

[Brighton Breezy]

i agree up to a point but you cant get away from the fact we all know the french love a good riot,what is less known is that the police had little powers to ask people to remove facial coverings,they do now however.I cant see how it is a bad thing.
Only recently there was a thread about the march for england/EDL/UAF and there seemed to be near unanimous consensus that it was idiotic to allow the UAF thugs to run around smashing the town whilst wearing balaclavas

I think the concern in the case of any riot would be the smashing things up bit. If they get arrested then their identity would be easy enough to establish.

 

[BadFish]

I know a number of modern free-thinking liberal Muslims who might disagree with this sort of crass and silly sweeping generalisation. Why does everything have to be black or white. There are loads of shades of grey - a blooming sight more than the 50 in that silly book.

I was in France - visiting the pastor of a protestant Church and his family, at about the time they were introducing this law. The pastor thought it was wrong and that they should allow people the freedom to do what they want. The wife saw the burq'ha (or however it is spelt) as a symbol of male oppression and thought it should be banned.

I have also heard interviews on both sides of the channel with women who would maintain that they choose themselves to be this modest in their dress, and that it is nothing to do with their menfolk. In some cases, though, it is clearly a sign of oppression.

I am not a student of the Koran, but I also believe there is nothing specifically in there which advocates or prescribes the burq'ha. It just advocates modesty in dress, so this is a question of interpretation, a bit like arguments in the Church of England (of which I am not a member) about women priests/bishops, or in the wider church about gay marriage, where context and the zeitgeist might come in to play as well. In Christian Terms, although Paul was a hero and a stalwart of the early church, there would also be those who would say he was a misogynist.

Trouble is too many ignorant people take the extremes of Islam and assume that this is part of all Islamic theology. Shades of grey is about right I think.To judge one person by the interpretation of someone else who believes in the same god is ludicrous. Muslims prey to the same god as Christians, the same as jews so by definition most religious people are divided by different interpretation of the same story to judge any of them because of another is folly.

Maybe Islam needs to contact Christianity's PR company and nick the idea of using different names for different interpretations so it is easy for people to differentiate between different types of Muslims.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

If by holding a particular set of moral values that means I oppose the oppression of women then yes, I'm extremely set in my ways.

I oppose the oppression of women too - having a strong wife and two strong daughters, they wouldn't let me do anything else. - I am saying that slightly tongue in cheek.

I was only trying to say it is too easy to generalise, and work on the basis that everybody following a particular practice is doing it for the same reason. There are Christian sects, too, which subjugate women - the Closed Brethren, for example, from what I know.

 

[Nibble]

I oppose the oppression of women too - having a strong wife and two strong daughters, they wouldn't let me do anything else. - I am saying that slightly tongue in cheek.

I was only trying to say it is too easy to generalise, and work on the basis that everybody following a particular practice is doing it for the same reason. There are Christian sects, too, which subjugate women - the Closed Brethren, for example, from what I know.

Aye, there are. I oppose them too.

 

[glasfryn]

I have never been that bothered what people wear even when it might have some religious connotation, in fact it adds to the colour of life.

but this does occur to me, what if all the European ex-pats that live in Islamic countries started wearing tee-shirts with gay rights logo's or with the cross of St George ala crusade.
it does seem to me that we are being made to tolerate non Christian attitudes and religious clothing simply because we are tolerant and our government in particular bend over backwards not to upset Islam.
maybe this is because we need the exports.
the "cross and crucifix" case where by wearing this in case it upset some customers was not handled very well she had every right to wear them as a sign of her religion.
as would anyone from any religion

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I refuse to wear a singlet, stubbies, thongs and a hat with corks on it........I suppose I am just refusing to integrate

Ridiculous example and completely missing the point.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Yes I would adopt my normal summer wear in Pakistan. This is my point. Today I'm wearing Levi's 511 slim-fit Commuter shorts, Birkenstocks and a crappy old t-shirt and I reckon this would be suitable in said country?

And I guess this where we disagree, as to me you would not be adopting the culture of your chosen country (of course holidays are different).

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

And I guess this where we disagree, as to me you would not be adopting the culture of your chosen country (of course holidays are different).

True. But I do not see a need to adopt dress culture when I'm abroad. I'm totally respectful to culture, but this does not mean I have to wear a green suit and carry a pig under my arm when I'm in Ireland for example.