[Albion] No criticism of RDZ ?

[jcdenton08]

I love RDZ. No criticism from me. Probably ever.

 

[Albion in the north]

rest of it is spot on though. we cannot deal with big physical strikers. but this isn’t a new thing. toney, mitrovic and kane have given us issues for years. it’s a personnel issue i feel, and a weakness of dunk and webster’s. that’s not me calling them bad, i just think we need to partner one with a fast, physical centre back. maybe igor is that player, still think we could do with a duel-heavy, fast and strong right back, however.

JPvH dealy with Haaland at the end of last season ok, so strange he wasnt playing at the weekend.

 

[Machiavelli]

An issue, expertly exploited by Moyes, is that Milner is far further upfield than Veltman last season. Here are heat maps for Veltman last season, Milner this. It’s obvious to the eye in the stadium. Veltman often seems to be positioned near the home dugout when we play N to S. Milner obviously would have less pace to recover.

We don’t know the reason why. RDZ instructions to Milner, RDZ has upped the risk element to balance losing a world class centre midfield, savvy opposition coaches copying the Dyche tactics board of suckering us in for the counter, players not adhering to instructions?

I’m not doom n gloom about the season. My only tactical/personnel aspiration is for Veltman or another career prime RB to start and that we find a quality 6 to start games.


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I think Milner's position/heatmap this season is easily explainable: we've been on the attack for most of the season, and spent Saturday pretty much camped in the opposition's final third. Last season, teams came at us more, so there was more to and fro to most of the games.

 

[Machiavelli]

JPvH dealy with Haaland at the end of last season ok, so strange he wasnt playing at the weekend.

It really isn't strange. JPvH had one good game (yet Haaland still managed to score), and hasn't been quite so good in the other games that he's started. I'm glad RDZ doesn't base his analysis of our CBs purely on one gam.e

 

[The Grockle]

Yep, RDZ out. Random different NSC poster every game until the end of the season

Bagzees Luton

 

[Weststander]

I think Milner's position/heatmap this season is easily explainable: we've been on the attack for most of the season, and spent Saturday pretty much camped in the opposition's final third. Last season, teams came at us more, so there was more to and fro to most of the games.

Interesting point.

If most PL and EL opponents to us from now on stay in shape deep, to their hearts content allowing Dunk, the goalie and other CB to pass amongst themselves, RDZ will require a very different Plan B.

Dyche of all coaches stumbled across a pretty obvious solution.

 

[raymondo]

Criticism? Absolutely not. As others have said, risk / reward etc.

It is fantastic how he has these players doing things they would never have dreamt of before. Clearly, they are learning from him.

Are there things he can learn? Yes.

I think he needs to develop some pragmatism. He needs to let players know that, maybe one time in 1,000 rowZ is necessary. Webster should have taken that option IMO, If teams think we are always going to opt for the fanny about option, then we become predictable.

Credit where it is due, Moyes did his homework and also purchased our Kryptonite (JWP).

I think he needs to allow players to adapt on the pitch more. There will be the odd occasion when being more direct can pay off, yesterday was an example.

Well said, row Z! Sorry RDZ it's not always best to keep possession (row Z !!)

 

[Machiavelli]

Interesting point.

If most PL and EL opponents to us from now on stay in shape deep, to their hearts content allowing Dunk, the goalie and other CB to pass amongst themselves, RDZ will require a very different Plan B.

Dyche of all coaches stumbled across a pretty obvious solution.

I think we're going to struggle against certain teams who do that for two reasons:
1, we're not so good at breaking through a deep block
2, we don't have the pace in defence to nullify the quality and speed that the likes of West Ham have up front. Pervis has got it, but he plays even higher up the field and has more licence than whoever is RB. Dunk is slow, ditto Veltman and Milner. Webster's quick but not lightning. Lamptey is rapid but isn't as good on the ball as the other RB options. Haven't seen Igor nor enough of JPvH to comment on their pace and positioning.

 

[Zeberdi]

RDZ can only make do with what he has at his disposal.

Quite -

And - Turning it around for a moment and moving away from criticism of RDZ - has anyone actually considered that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the style of RDZs football, nor does it need to be modified despite us getting the odd trouncing- it’s being admired throughout the league and throughout Europe. This issue for me, is that for deZerbi ball to work in the way that some (gentle) critics of RDZ are demanding, it requires a level of skill and pace that we are still lacking in places and always have - notwithstanding loosing our MF pivot - RDZ knew it would be a loss and from the outset knew we are a Club that will always sell on for the right price because it’s buy low sell high that sustains our business model - so we were never going to replace Caceido with another £80-100m player - and we would have to spend around that to get anyone near Moises’s level of skill.

It’s not the style of football that is the issue, it’s the talent that’s still lacking in a few key areas that is making us vulnerable when we press high but in the meantime, stating the blinking obvious, we qualified for Europe and came 6th last season and personally I have no reason to think that our biggest fan,TB, PB one of the industry’s top Executives along with one of the best managers in the modern game, would be happy this season for the Club to regress both in terms of competition results and team talent- that flies in the face of everything I know as a supporter of the Club.

We need to keep on scoring goals which we do with RDZs system of play - and as long as we do, we will maintain a respectable GD even if the risk of conceeding goals is higher and whilst a severe spanking from time to time will hurt, it wont define our season.

This is only the 3rd week - I would like to see how our midfield is shaping up after the international break before jumping to the conclusion that’s its all going to hell in a hand basket and our very talented Manager is to blame.

Would people really be happier playing safe, defensive football under a manager like Potter - I doubt it!

 

[Sheebo]

I wondered if he was making a point before the transfer window closes.

There’s no chance any credible manager would ‘make a point’ by losing a game ever. Especially not one at a club like ours. Sensationalist comment for me that.

 

[Munchkin]

Webster terrible, Areola exceptional.

Nothing to do with RDZ.

 

[raymondo]

Criticism? Absolutely not. As others have said, risk / reward etc.

It is fantastic how he has these players doing things they would never have dreamt of before. Clearly, they are learning from him.

Are there things he can learn? Yes.

I think he needs to develop some pragmatism. He needs to let players know that, maybe one time in 1,000 rowZ is necessary. Webster should have taken that option IMO, If teams think we are always going to opt for the fanny about option, then we become predictable.

Credit where it is due, Moyes did his homework and also purchased our Kryptonite (JWP).

I think he needs to allow players to adapt on the pitch more. There will be the odd occasion when being more direct can pay off, yesterday was an example.

I feel immensely proud that WHU bought JWP just so they could beat us .
I wonder if we'll ever see the day when teams can take a player on loan just for one game... precisely for that reason ...the way football's going I don't discount any possibilities.

 

[Weststander]

I think we're going to struggle against certain teams who do that for two reasons:
1, we're not so good at breaking through a deep block
2, we don't have the pace in defence to nullify the quality and speed that the likes of West Ham have up front. Pervis has got it, but he plays even higher up the field and has more licence than whoever is RB. Dunk is slow, ditto Veltman and Milner. Webster's quick but not lightning. Lamptey is rapid but isn't as good on the ball as the other RB options. Haven't seen Igor nor enough of JPvH to comment on their pace and positioning.

Liverpool faced a low block for several seasons, crazy OPTA stats in the favour, but so many draws. Literally 10 man defences. In the end they beat it, I must admit I can’t remember exactly how. But one part of it was becoming a real threat at set pieces. Robertson and TAA (total cost £10m) have insane assist stats, the CB’s chip with a few goals.

Assuming that most PL managers will now leave Dunk & mates upfield, whilst they wait upfield in two banks of 5, cigars out, it’ll be interesting to see what RDZ has in mind.

 

[Weststander]

There’s no chance any credible manager would ‘make a point’ by losing a game ever. Especially not one at a club like ours. Sensationalist comment for me that.

It’s the sort of thing Maureenho would do.

 

[Zeberdi]

There’s no chance any credible manager would ‘make a point’ by losing a game ever. Especially not one at a club like ours. Sensationalist comment for me that.

and would be tantamount to breach of contract I suspect!

 

[Machiavelli]

Liverpool faced a low block for several seasons, crazy OPTA stats in the favour, but so many draws. Literally 10 man defences. In the end they beat it, I must admit I can’t remember exactly how. But one part of it was becoming a real threat at set pieces. Robertson and TAA (total cost £10m) have insane assist stats, the CB’s chip with a few goals.

Assuming that most PL managers will now leave Dunk & mates upfield, whilst they wait upfield in two banks of 5, cigars out, it’ll be interesting to see what RDZ has in mind.

Liverpool have just got the quality to break the block. Set pieces is one, the crossing ability of Robertson another, and the range of passing from TAA yet another. They also play at such intensity, at a level that we haven't reached as yet.
I'm not blaming the players, RDZ, recruitment, etc. You're aware of the financial differences more than I am, and Klopp has managed to make them over-achieve from that.

 

[Weststander]

Liverpool have just got the quality to break the block. Set pieces is one, the crossing ability of Robertson another, and the range of passing from TAA yet another. They also play at such intensity, at a level that we haven't reached as yet.
I'm not blaming the players, RDZ, recruitment, etc. You're aware of the financial differences more than I am, and Klopp has managed to make them over-achieve from that.

Great post. Love the debate btw.

 

[WATFORD zero]

If RDZ hadn't convinced me that we should win every game, then maybe I wouldn't be laying so much of the blame at his door, but it wasn't his best performance

However, I really can't think of a a manager I'd rather have, and certainly not one who's managed just over 40 games at this level. Klopp, Arteta, Pep, Moyes, Dyche most of the managers he is now up against have seen him for 12 months and had years doing this at a very high level.

It is going to be hard, but I'll still back him

 

[Barnet Seagull]

I've seen some of the analysis this weekend and it's a bit sensationalist.

Football is all about controlling the space. You can't control the entirety of the pitch as there aren't enough bodies so you have to leave gaps somewhere. A lot of more defensive teams cede areas out wide between the midfield and attack with a view to progressing the ball vertically.

We don't - this isn't something new and something managers won't already have worked out. To suggest it is, is a bit naive.

We very deliberately engage higher up the field in the wide midfield -> attacking spaces most teams leave alone and we bait the press, hoping to create a lot of space behind to use that positioning effectively and create opportunities. This puts opposition defences under pressure nice and early and can create opportunities if teams over-commit. The downside is it leaves spaces out wide between the midfield and defence when we progress the ball forward. These spaces in behind can be exploited by any team and have been on a number of occasions both this season and last but the gaps are coverable in the defensive structure De Zerbi uses.

The challenge is that these gaps create situations where defenders are one on one or are running back towards our goal which is more risky. Any failure to track, close down or any missed tackle/interception can lead to opportunities for the opposition.

As I said earlier in this thread, tactically there's not a lot wrong with the setup given what we're trying to do and I don't think the problem is as severe as some writers would have you believe.
I also don't think West Ham (or most other teams) get away with being as defensive as they did yesterday at Home in front of thousands of fans, nor will they potentially be as successful.

As RDZ says, his idea is not going to change, we're just always carrying a level of risk defensively so we can dominate offensively. Some days it goes against you.

p.s. If I were a betting man, I'd never back us at home

 

[KZNSeagull]

The only thing I would change is that when a team is obviously going to use a low block, make sure we have 3 tricksters in the front 4 with Ferguson up front (eg Mitoma, March, Pedro) and move the ball faster between them. RDZ will sort it