[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Comrade Sam]

So this election needed more racism, xenophobia, hatred and culture war bullshit from another rich (white) man?

 

[TomandJerry]

So this election needed more racism, xenophobia, hatred and culture war bullshit from another rich (white) man?

Lashings of racism

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Its an interesting one. Farage will get attention and headlines and in the short term it seems like a good thing for Reform.... but is it really? Farage is known as a single-issue guy who has fronted a number of different parties that are essentially there as a vehicle for his ambitions. He has popularity, no doubt, but also has a lot of people who dislike him, and those people will come from within the ranks of potential Reform voters as well as outside.

Thing about Reform was that they seemed to be on a track to being a genuine additional party in our politics, arguably the first right-wing party to actually have a long-term vision and policies outside of the anti-immigrant schtick. It felt like they were building themselves into a proper long-term party rather than be a single-issue protest vote. But we've essentially seen a Farage coup to turn it right back into a single-issue, Farage-promoting, protest group for the disaffected right, which has no obvious longevity, and probably a lower ceiling - yeah it will attract a motivated core, but can it grow beyond 8-10% of voters? And post-election, with most likely no MP's (although can't rule out Farage winning), what happens then? Farage rides off again, but can Tice come back? Pretty humiliating to be replaced as leader of your party during an actual election campaign.

 

[aolstudios]

Its an interesting one. Farage will get attention and headlines and in the short term it seems like a good thing for Reform.... but is it really? Farage is known as a single-issue guy who has fronted a number of different parties that are essentially there as a vehicle for his ambitions. He has popularity, no doubt, but also has a lot of people who dislike him, and those people will come from within the ranks of potential Reform voters as well as outside.

Thing about Reform was that they seemed to be on a track to being a genuine additional party in our politics, arguably the first right-wing party to actually have a long-term vision and policies outside of the anti-immigrant schtick. It felt like they were building themselves into a proper long-term party rather than be a single-issue protest vote. But we've essentially seen a Farage coup to turn it right back into a single-issue, Farage-promoting, protest group for the disaffected right, which has no obvious longevity, and probably a lower ceiling - yeah it will attract a motivated core, but can it grow beyond 8-10% of voters? And post-election, with most likely no MP's (although can't rule out Farage winning), what happens then? Farage rides off again, but can Tice come back? Pretty humiliating to be replaced as leader of your party during an actual election campaign.

A plague on them all.
Hope they're obliterated

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Love to know how his latest offering on zero net migration works

take the 18 year olds who don’t do national service and make them work in care homes or hospitals

The Tories deliberately included foreign university students, who pay full whack for their courses, in the immigration figures, so they can stand there and shout about how many are coming in every years, but failing to point out, similar numbers go home after three or four years.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

Without foreign students' money, quite a few universities will close and go back to the preserve of the rich.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I might get a minute of pleasant stroking of my cat Kenny before he turns on me and sinks his fangs into my hand/arm.

I imagine all Sunak gets out of Larry is the fang sinking.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The Tories deliberately included foreign university students, who pay full whack for their courses, in the immigration figures, so they can stand there and shout about how many are coming in every years, but failing to point out, similar numbers go home after three or four years.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

Without foreign students' money, quite a few universities will close and go back to the preserve of the rich.

Which is exactly what Farage wants.

In the Today programme he said he wants kids doing the jobs immigrants do now instead of “social sciences degrees”.

In other words, cheap labour for him and his mates and an ignorant population to gaslight.

 

[dsr-burnley]

The Tories deliberately included foreign university students, who pay full whack for their courses, in the immigration figures, so they can stand there and shout about how many are coming in every years, but failing to point out, similar numbers go home after three or four years.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

Without foreign students' money, quite a few universities will close and go back to the preserve of the rich.

Net migration figures are the net of incoming and outgoing, so the numbers going home (which appear not to be all that similar!) are included. The net migration into this country, AFTER deducting those who are leaving, is a fraction short of 1.5m over the last 2 years.

As for some universities closing, I'm by no means convinced that it would be a bad thing. Do they serve any useful purpose, apart from burdening young people with large debts and a worthless degree? When half the population have degrees, and half the rest would be capable of getting one but choose not to, it must devalue the worth of the qualification.

I don't remember this time when universities were the preserve of the rich. All my time until 1998, it was admission free, often with grants to help with living expenses. How far back are you going?

 

[dsr-burnley]

Which is exactly what Farage wants.

In the Today programme he said he wants kids doing the jobs immigrants do now instead of “social sciences degrees”.

In other words, cheap labour for him and his mates and an ignorant population to gaslight.

Surely the part of the point of remaining in the EU was because we didn't want to lose the cheap labour? One of the reasons people in the less affluent north liked the idea of leaving the EU, is because people on low wages don't particularly like the idea of keeping those wages low. If we import fewer immigrants to do the less well paid jobs, those jobs may become better paid.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Its an interesting one. Farage will get attention and headlines and in the short term it seems like a good thing for Reform.... but is it really? Farage is known as a single-issue guy who has fronted a number of different parties that are essentially there as a vehicle for his ambitions. He has popularity, no doubt, but also has a lot of people who dislike him, and those people will come from within the ranks of potential Reform voters as well as outside.

Thing about Reform was that they seemed to be on a track to being a genuine additional party in our politics, arguably the first right-wing party to actually have a long-term vision and policies outside of the anti-immigrant schtick. It felt like they were building themselves into a proper long-term party rather than be a single-issue protest vote. But we've essentially seen a Farage coup to turn it right back into a single-issue, Farage-promoting, protest group for the disaffected right, which has no obvious longevity, and probably a lower ceiling - yeah it will attract a motivated core, but can it grow beyond 8-10% of voters? And post-election, with most likely no MP's (although can't rule out Farage winning), what happens then? Farage rides off again, but can Tice come back? Pretty humiliating to be replaced as leader of your party during an actual election campaign.

I suspect Tice is delighted to have Farage take back the reins. He was asking for him to rethink his plan to go to the US. Will be interesting to see what the polls say this weekend. It’s surely only a matter of time before Reform overtakes the Tories. They’re already ahead of the LibDems and Greens.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Farage is just a wrecker.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Which is exactly what Farage wants.

In the Today programme he said he wants kids doing the jobs immigrants do now instead of “social sciences degrees”.

In other words, cheap labour for him and his mates and an ignorant population to gaslight.

Cheap labour - more profits for the rich.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Surely the part of the point of remaining in the EU was because we didn't want to lose the cheap labour? One of the reasons people in the less affluent north liked the idea of leaving the EU, is because people on low wages don't particularly like the idea of keeping those wages low. If we import fewer immigrants to do the less well paid jobs, those jobs may become better paid.

If people who used to do history degrees are cleaning hotels, where do the next history teachers come from?

It’s an idiot factory.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Surely the part of the point of remaining in the EU was because we didn't want to lose the cheap labour? One of the reasons people in the less affluent north liked the idea of leaving the EU, is because people on low wages don't particularly like the idea of keeping those wages low. If we import fewer immigrants to do the less well paid jobs, those jobs may become better paid.

There are 48,000 vacancies in the NHS and not enough training places for British youngsters. This government has been actively recruiting in Asia.

 

[dsr-burnley]

There are 48,000 vacancies in the NHS and not enough training places for British youngsters. This government has been actively recruiting in Asia.

Yes, and it's a stupid policy. Hopefully the new government will sort that out (though I have my doubts).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Net migration figures are the net of incoming and outgoing, so the numbers going home (which appear not to be all that similar!) are included. The net migration into this country, AFTER deducting those who are leaving, is a fraction short of 1.5m over the last 2 years.

As for some universities closing, I'm by no means convinced that it would be a bad thing. Do they serve any useful purpose, apart from burdening young people with large debts and a worthless degree? When half the population have degrees, and half the rest would be capable of getting one but choose not to, it must devalue the worth of the qualification.

I don't remember this time when universities were the preserve of the rich. All my time until 1998, it was admission free, often with grants to help with living expenses. How far back are you going?

When I left school in the 60s and many red brick universities were just being built. Polytechnics were there for those who wanted professional qualifications like mechanical engineering etc, but then they changed to universities as well.
I went to a grammar school, and only the top 10% of the year stayed to 6th form, and only 2% went to university. Admittedly, it was an all girls school and many of us weren't expected to work after we got married.
That attitude didn't change until the late 70s.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes, and it's a stupid policy. Hopefully the new government will sort that out (though I have my doubts).

It shows the hypocrisy of the government's immigration policy.

 

[dsr-burnley]

If people who used to do history degrees are cleaning hotels, where do the next history teachers come from?

It’s an idiot factory.

I don't think there was ever a suggestion that Brexit would mean wages for cleaners would be higher than for teachers.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Will be interesting to see what the polls say this weekend. It’s surely only a matter of time before Reform overtakes the Tories. They’re already ahead of the LibDems and Greens.

I'm sure the Lib Dems are well pleased that Farage is standing. I can see Reform taking away Tory votes in the south and south-west and that could make the difference in a number of seats. You could have a situation where Reform get 15% of the vote and 1 seat, while the Lib Dems get 10% of the vote and 50 seats.

 

[albionalba]

As for some universities closing, I'm by no means convinced that it would be a bad thing. Do they serve any useful purpose, apart from burdening young people with large debts and a worthless degree? When half the population have degrees, and half the rest would be capable of getting one but choose not to, it must devalue the worth of the qualification.

I don't remember this time when universities were the preserve of the rich. All my time until 1998, it was admission free, often with grants to help with living expenses. How far back are you going?

This is a complicated issue and there's a danger of going off topic but there is a huge amount of bloating in UK universities and they are sitting on a pensions time-bomb that we are all at risk from having to pick up the tab for. One of the problems (like many educational issues) is that measures of quality often ignore the inputs vs outputs measures so quality in (from 'good' schools) = quality out and the actual impact of the so-called 'good' university on those folk is minimal (but they keep on getting the kudos). Whereas colleges and universities with lower edu quality intakes have to work harder but then just get measured on their fairly average output. So (whilst I don't like the targeting of non-UK nationals applying for education to massage immigration stats) a few financial shocks might help in stimulating massive change in the sector and an overall reduction in public spending on institutions that (like private schools) hide behind the charitable status. We could probably reduce the number of UK universities by 75% and get a decent chunk of money to spend on better tertiary and higher educational initiatives. It won't happen though. Most university courts have someone close to lobby in the Lords etc. So don't target the overseas students. Target the universities and then see if that has any short term impact on immigration. If a future gov got this right (in the medium term) it would probably increase the number of talented overseas students seeking to study here - but that would be a good thing if happening on merit and a measure of quality that just hides behind the status quo presently.