[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Hugo Rune]

There was no need to ditch Erasmus from the Brexit deal. Johnson was asked specifically to include it, but he was in such a rush to get his ‘oven ready deal’ through, it was neglected.

Along with quite a lot of other stuff including free movement for musicians etc.

Hopefully Sir Keir will start drip feeding the idea of European reintegration and step by step over the next few years, we’ll gradually get a lot of these things back.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Hilarious that supposedly left wing people become Torys the moment they have to justify mass immigration. "If you're unhappy with your lot simply get a better paying job". Imagine if this was said in the context of food banks or benefits

You obviously missed my “Whilst I have sympathy for anyone struggling with their work and pay etc I do not have a lot of time for people who start pointing the finger at others who are trying to get on.” post.

Happy to support those in genuine need. Not happy to support the lazy who blame everyone else.

 

[TomandJerry]

Reform now only 2 points behind the Conservatives

 

[Eric the meek]

You obviously missed my “Whilst I have sympathy for anyone struggling with their work and pay etc I do not have a lot of time for people who start pointing the finger at others who are trying to get on.” post.

Happy to support those in genuine need. Not happy to support the lazy who blame everyone else.

You beat me to it. There seems to be several people on here who fail to read or understand the posts in front of them. They then try to fill in the gaps according to some other agenda, basing their contribution on evidence which simply isn't there, and which wasn't being discussed anyway.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

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You beat me to it. There seems to be several people on here who fail to read or understand the posts in front of them. They then try to fill in the gaps according to some other agenda, basing their contribution on evidence which simply isn't there, and which wasn't being discussed anyway.

Quite. As @Ike and Tina Burner typed “ Imagine if this was said in the context of food banks or benefits” - …… it wasn’t It’s about the people @dsr-burnley described in his post.

 

[Eric the meek]

t

Quite. As @Ike and Tina Burner typed “ Imagine if this was said in the context of food banks or benefits” - …… it wasn’t It’s about the people @dsr-burnley described in his post.

Exactly. I was going to make the same point, but thought that brevity should prevail. He is changing the context (to food banks and benefits) to support his own agenda.
I feel this is unwise.

Your original point - and mine - was this. If you've got a crap job which you don't like, stop wasting time blaming foreigners, and do something about it yourself. If you don't do it, nobody else will. This is a simple point which seems to exercise a number of people.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

You obviously missed my “Whilst I have sympathy for anyone struggling with their work and pay etc I do not have a lot of time for people who start pointing the finger at others who are trying to get on.” post.

Happy to support those in genuine need. Not happy to support the lazy who blame everyone else.

So if someone is a hard worker and blames mass immigration for poor pay/conditions that's fine? I'm not being snippy, it's a genuine question.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

Exactly. I was going to make the same point, but thought that brevity should prevail. He is changing the context (to food banks and benefits) to support his own agenda.
I feel this is unwise.

Your original point - and mine - was this. If you've got a crap job which you don't like, stop wasting time blaming foreigners, and do something about it yourself. If you don't do it, nobody else will. This is a simple point which seems to exercise a number of people.

I'm not sure how my point has gone so far over your head. It's hard for poor people to improve their situation. Saying people in crap jobs "should do something about it" is verbatim a Tory argument for disregarding people who rely on benefits or food banks. My point was It's stupid in that context for the same reason your point was stupid in this context.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So if someone is a hard worker and blames mass immigration for poor pay/conditions that's fine? I'm not being snippy, it's a genuine question.

We’re digressing. My point, as is @Eric the meek ’s, is I don’t like the blame game. I stand by the vulnerable, the needy, those who genuinely need support, but I struggle to stand with able but whining blokes from Burnley (which is what started this debate) who want to be paid a bit more.

 

[Eric the meek]

I'm not sure how my point has gone so far over your head. It's hard for poor people to improve their situation. Saying people in crap jobs "should do something about it" is verbatim a Tory argument for disregarding people who rely on benefits or food banks. My point was It's stupid in that context for the same reason your point was stupid in this context.

Verbatim? Do you even know the meaning of that? Do you always interpret things so poorly?

The whole discussion wasn't about the Tories, or foodbanks or benefits, but about not blaming foreigners for your own low wages.

You need to peddle your witchfinder routine elsewhere.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

So instead of looking to better yourself and find higher paid employment you take this selfish attitude, whine and point the finger at Johnny Foreigner pushing Brexit and inflation onto the rest of us. It also demonstrates a breathtaking lack of imagination and ambition.

You have to admit this is a very callous and simplistic view of people stuck in crap jobs. It's not one that I think you would stand by in a different context which is why it doesn't make much sense to me at all. You seem to think if someone blames mass immigration they're fair game for being called lazy but if someone doesn't blame immigration then they're not.

We’re digressing. My point, as is @Eric the meek ’s, is I don’t like the blame game. I stand by the vulnerable, the needy, those who genuinely need support, but I struggle to stand with able but whining blokes from Burnley (which is what started this debate) who want to be paid a bit more.

You can't seem to accept that some hard working, low skilled, workers blame immigration for making their lives harder.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

Verbatim? Do you even know the meaning of that? Do you always interpret things so poorly?

The whole discussion wasn't about the Tories, or foodbanks or benefits, but about not blaming foreigners for your own low wages.

You need to peddle your witchfinder routine elsewhere.

You suggested that people who blame foreigners for their own low wages should simply skill up and make more money. This is a fundamentally privileged and flawed viewpoint that you somehow think becomes acceptable when you create a fictional bogeyman from Burnley to direct it at. It's that kind of arrogant, dismissive thinking that has led us to a situation where 17% of the country is willing to vote f***ing reform.

Btw verbatim means “exactly word for word”. To say your argument is "Verbatim a Tory argument" is to say that it is word for word a tory argument, which it is. Can you please explain why I was grammatically incorrect?

 

[Eric the meek]

You have to admit this is a very callous and simplistic view of people stuck in crap jobs. It's not one that I think you would stand by in a different context which is why it doesn't make much sense to me at all. You seem to think if someone blames mass immigration they're fair game for being called lazy but if someone doesn't blame immigration then they're not.

You can't seem to accept that some hard working, low skilled, workers blame immigration for making their lives harder.

Callous? Simplistic? Lazy?

I'm seeing new accusations, a whole range of assumptions, an attempt to put words into people's mouths and pretending you can read people's minds.

Nobody has to admit anything. If things don't make sense to you, that might be because you have deliberately chosen not to understand them.

 

[Eric the meek]

You suggested that people who blame foreigners for their own low wages should simply skill up and make more money. This is a fundamentally privileged and flawed viewpoint that you somehow think becomes acceptable when you create a fictional bogeyman from Burnley to direct it at. It's that kind of arrogant, dismissive thinking that has led us to a situation where 17% of the country is willing to vote f***ing reform.

Btw verbatim means “exactly word for word”. To say your argument is "Verbatim a Tory argument" is to say that it is word for word a tory argument, which it is. Can you please explain why I was grammatically incorrect?

You need to re-read the whole discussion.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

Callous? Simplistic? Lazy?

I'm seeing new accusations, a whole range of assumptions, an attempt to put words into people's mouths and pretending you can read people's minds.

Nobody has to admit anything. If things don't make sense to you, that might be because you have deliberately chosen not to understand them.

I've read the discussion, your contributions and I stand by my points. You fundamentally fail to understand that for some people it's quite hard to move on from crap work or to easily find a job after bing made unemployed 8 times. Irregardless of 'getting it' or 'helping themselves'. You seem to think self victimhood is the main cause for these people's ills.

Those who 'get it', can clean up. Those who don't, assign themselves, and their children, to a lifetime of victimhood.

Is this a quote from Jacob Rees-Mogg's autobiography?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Yes, that's correct. So the net incoming migration of 1.4m over the last two years is not affected by the student numbers because the numbers coming in are balanced by the numbers going out.

While we're talking about immigration, I do find this graph staggering, Relative levels of immigration have skyrocketed under this current government and particularly since Brexit - its no wonder that people who previously backed the Tory party over immigration are searching for an alternative like Reform. Nevertheless it will be Labour who have to deal with it, another difficult hand given to them by this useless government who thought it was better to spend millions faffing around with a Rwanda policy than actually investing in people to deal with this on the ground.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

While we're talking about immigration, I do find this graph staggering, Relative levels of immigration have skyrocketed under this current government and particularly since Brexit - its no wonder that people who previously backed the Tory party over immigration are searching for an alternative like Reform. Nevertheless it will be Labour who have to deal with it, another difficult hand given to them by this useless government who thought it was better to spend millions faffing around with a Rwanda policy than actually investing in people to deal with this on the ground.

If this is 'legal' migration, why are the tories dicking about with the relatively trivial numbers of 'illegal' migrants? It is as if the tories have left the front door wide open and are complaining about a draft coming from a small crack in the toilet window. Which Labour have no answer to.

Are the tories planning to send legal migrants to Rwanda?

Honestly.....they are the worst type of chartalans.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Hilarious that supposedly left wing people become Torys the moment they have to justify mass immigration. "If you're unhappy with your lot simply get a better paying job". Imagine if this was said in the context of food banks or benefits

I'm not sure what your first sentence has to do with the rest of what you have written. I do know a couple of chaps who claim they used to be Labour in the 1970s but became 'disillusioned' when Blair got in.....something to do with 'letting in' too many brown people. Are you saying that such people . . . . are being mean to brown people who use food banks? That would surely be unreasonable, given the vast majority of people who use food banks are white.

Maybe I should just let these things go and read another post . If I'm being dim, please put me right

(Incidentally I have a very low opinion of former 'socialists' who have gone right wing because in their opinion Labour has 'neglected' the (white) working man, and gone soft on the triple enemy - women, homosexuals and 'foreigners' - code for blacks - it used to be Jews)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I've read the discussion, your contributions and I stand by my points. You fundamentally fail to understand that for some people it's quite hard to move on from crap work or to easily find a job after bing made unemployed 8 times. Irregardless of 'getting it' or 'helping themselves'. You seem to think self victimhood is the main cause for these people's ills.

Is this a quote from Jacob Rees-Mogg's autobiography?

You aren't following @Eric the meek 's narrative.

But it is hard to 'hear' irony in flat text so making an interpretation mistake it is an easy mistake to make.

And it's the meat John West rejects, that makes John West the best.

Or something.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You beat me to it. There seems to be several people on here who fail to read or understand the posts in front of them. They then try to fill in the gaps according to some other agenda, basing their contribution on evidence which simply isn't there, and which wasn't being discussed anyway.

I came into this discussion at the end, but reached the same conclusion before I started to read 'backwards'.

As someone on the autism spectrum, but with hard-won insight, I am fully aware of how easy it is to fall between the gaps when trying to read between the lines. On NSC my 'pattern recognition' is helped when I am familiar with a regular poster's typical perspective and the cut of their jib. so mu conclusion on this occasion was not long to reach.

My guess is that @Ike and Tina Burner may have miss-read between the lines. No harm done. Recalibrate and, like what I say to the nipper when she does herself a mischief (and which I say to myself too, after 'misunderstandings', when I am able to get in touch with what passes as my humility) - be more careful next time.