[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[dsr-burnley]

So instead of looking to better yourself and find higher paid employment you take this selfish attitude, whine and point the finger at Johnny Foreigner pushing Brexit and inflation onto the rest of us. It also demonstrates a breathtaking lack of imagination and ambition.

Shocking.

That's been the attitude of certain elements of the rich ever since the Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Trades Union movement since its inception has been all about wanting better pay and conditions for the "workers", and that's a large part of the reason why the red wall turned to Brexit and to Boris Johnson. Labour is now the party of civil servants, the middle classes, and people on benefits. It isn't the party of labour any more. The Tories briefly gave the impression that they might be.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Yes, the Tories changed it to include students, who, of course, return home when their courses have finished.

Yes, that's correct. So the net incoming migration of 1.4m over the last two years is not affected by the student numbers because the numbers coming in are balanced by the numbers going out.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's been the attitude of certain elements of the rich ever since the Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Trades Union movement since its inception has been all about wanting better pay and conditions for the "workers", and that's a large part of the reason why the red wall turned to Brexit and to Boris Johnson. Labour is now the party of civil servants, the middle classes, and people on benefits. It isn't the party of labour any more. The Tories briefly gave the impression that they might be.

My point is you literally blamed immigrants on low pay. By all means join a union and negotiate better pay, you have my support on this, but don’t whine and point the finger at fellow workers and blame others. It’s lazy and unimaginative and crappy.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Well said.

I used to work in IT. During my career, I lost my job or contract due to outsourcing (being replaced by cheap Indian labour) EIGHT times. Each time it happened, I didn't waste time blaming Indians. I just went out and got another job.

But you were able to do that because you had easily transferable and in demand skills which still could demand a good wage. Plenty of jobs not like that, plenty of jobs where european labour was prepared to work for less and also not be part of a union.

I am not going to blame immigrants illegal or otherwise , there are a raft of issues which are causing problems which can't be solve over night. We need a strategy which considers the next 30 years not the next 5 and that includes educating our kids to fit the countries labour force needs not educating them to take the high skilled jobs that don't exist or are easily transferable abroad.

Immigration has its place , certainly as our population is aging we need young people to come in but that has to be part of plan not just uncontrolled.

 

[Eric the meek]

But you were able to do that because you had easily transferable and in demand skills which still could demand a good wage. Plenty of jobs not like that, plenty of jobs where european labour was prepared to work for less and also not be part of a union.

I am not going to blame immigrants illegal or otherwise , there are a raft of issues which are causing problems which can't be solve over night. We need a strategy which considers the next 30 years not the next 5 and that includes educating our kids to fit the countries labour force needs not educating them to take the high skilled jobs that don't exist or are easily transferable abroad.

Immigration has its place , certainly as our population is aging we need young people to come in but that has to be part of plan not just uncontrolled.

You manage to miss my point entirely*. My point was to take ownership of my own future.

My point had nothing whatsoever to do with immigration, or whatever strategies you or anyone thought were needed to plan immigration or educate kids to fit what you think the country's labour force needs.

Before working in IT, I was a cartographer. It was in the early 80s, just at the point at which digital cartography was in its infancy. I moved into IT precisely because I anticipated, correctly, that it would provide highly paid work for a long time.

I had easily transferable skills that were in demand, because that is what I had planned to gain. It didn't happen by chance. Good luck had nothing to do with it.

Anyone can do what I did. All they have to do, is lose the victimhood, stop blaming other people, and start competing against whoever and wherever, their rivals are.

*Your final word in your final sentence was the giveaway.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But you were able to do that because you had easily transferable and in demand skills which still could demand a good wage. Plenty of jobs not like that, plenty of jobs where european labour was prepared to work for less and also not be part of a union.

I am not going to blame immigrants illegal or otherwise , there are a raft of issues which are causing problems which can't be solve over night. We need a strategy which considers the next 30 years not the next 5 and that includes educating our kids to fit the countries labour force needs not educating them to take the high skilled jobs that don't exist or are easily transferable abroad.

Immigration has its place , certainly as our population is aging we need young people to come in but that has to be part of plan not just uncontrolled.

“educating our kids to fit the countries labour force needs”

I guess this is why foreign investment in industry and business has plummeted since Brexit….potential employers don’t want to wait until Brits have finished their education. Whether you like it or not, to grow an economy you need ready tap of workers to instantly turn on…and freedom of movement provided this.

Good luck with educating folk to work in asparagus fields.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

The Green Party policy on housing is to build more council houses and end the right to buy and make renting fairer, it's not incompatible with a humane immigration policy.

Immigrants are not trashing the countryside either.

(1) Build more Council Houses - good (but where - there are a limited number of brown field sites available, especially in somewhere like Brighton)
(2) End Right to buy - why? As long as stock is replaced when sold why stop aspiration to own your home?
(3) Who said immigrants are trashing the countryside? I just asked how The Green Party can protect the countryside yet encourage mass immigration which is going to lead to even more demand for housing.

 

[WATFORD zero]

That's been the attitude of certain elements of the rich ever since the Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Trades Union movement since its inception has been all about wanting better pay and conditions for the "workers", and that's a large part of the reason why the red wall turned to Brexit and to Boris Johnson. Labour is now the party of civil servants, the middle classes, and people on benefits. It isn't the party of labour any more. The Tories briefly gave the impression that they might be.

I'm fascinated to know what aspects of Brexit and Boris Johnson would even briefly have given you the impression that they would help the working classes. I'm assuming you are referring to that brief period between 2016 and 2022

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

(1) Build more Council Houses - good (but where - there are a limited number of brown field sites available, especially in somewhere like Brighton)
(2) End Right to buy - why? As long as stock is replaced when sold why stop aspiration to own your home?
(3) Who said immigrants are trashing the countryside? I just asked how The Green Party can protect the countryside yet encourage mass immigration which is going to lead to even more demand for housing.

The UK is over 90% green fields. I’m sure a smidgen on this can be given over to council houses. Or build apartment blocks

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Green Party policy on housing is to build more council houses and end the right to buy and make renting fairer, it's not incompatible with a humane immigration policy.

Immigrants are not trashing the countryside either.

Where?

According to our local Green candidate's election leaflet the Green will 'make more social housing available'. They certainly won't be building new council houses round here. Every square inch of available land (a lot of it 'green belt') is being built on now.

I agree that immigrants are not trashing the countryside. They are farming it (well, working the land). I was in Aldi the other day and there was a dozen tanned blokes speaking a language I didn't recognise (tempted to say Albanian). In their 30s and 40s I would guess. Odd because in the past it was always Eastern European kids in their late teens and early 20s doing the fruit picking. All part of the tory economic plan?

 

[Eric the meek]

A brief history of three word slogans.

Take back control.
High wage economy.
Brexit means Brexit.
Get Brexit done.
Get over it.
You lost. Hahaha.
Gridlock in Dover.
French being awkward.
Wave them through.
Stop the boats.
Use a wave machine.
Send them back.
Rwanda looks safe...
Low wages for Brexiteers.
Choose your scapegoat.
Blame the Indians.
Indians are offshore.
Brexit can't stop Indians.
Bugger.
To be continued...

 

[jimhigham]

Sorry, but where am I saying that immigrants are the cause of our ills?

I asked a specific question of you with regards to The Green Party, their policy on Housing, their policy on immigration and how it matches with protecting the Countryside.

Briefly, because it's a massively complex subject...

That can be addressed but it needs a complete cultural shift in our approach to housing. Everybody having their own two bedroom house with a garden out the back is unsustainable. We need to rethink urban planning. Town centres are dying. Change of use is required to turn them into medium density housing (such as the centre of Paris, with many four and five storey residential buildings). The nature of town centre business would then change from shops to services, as has already happened to a degree.

It's a very hard sell. People like their place in the country (or at least the suburbs). This is why real leadership would be required to drive such change.

 

[drew]

That's been the attitude of certain elements of the rich ever since the Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Trades Union movement since its inception has been all about wanting better pay and conditions for the "workers", and that's a large part of the reason why the red wall turned to Brexit and to Boris Johnson. Labour is now the party of civil servants, the middle classes, and people on benefits. It isn't the party of labour any more. The Tories briefly gave the impression that they might be.

You're trying to make it sound that, historically, Labour have been very left wing. They've fluctuated between the left and centre. What we can say is that a far left wing labour party, eg Corbyn and Foot, have never won an election and if you're never in power you can never effect change for the benefit of workers. It's a joke to suggest that Labour are only for civil servants and middle class. Workers switched to Johnson at the last election purely because he said he would get Brexit done (he didn't, he made a mess of it). Had Corbyn had a policy to 'get brexit done' then the election would have been a lot closer.

 

[Is it PotG?]

I'm sure the sums have been done, but private investors may baulk at the 50% affordable housing combined with the desperate need for any parallel infrastructure.
I also feel the Green/Grey belt lines might be a little, er fuzzy.

The future

I can also see the NIMBY issue rearing its ugly head once again. I feel the plan looks nice on paper, reality may be slightly different. Who is going to build the places?

 

[Wozza]

 

[Eric the meek]

Briefly, because it's a massively complex subject...

That can be addressed but it needs a complete cultural shift in our approach to housing. Everybody having their own two bedroom house with a garden out the back is unsustainable. We need to rethink urban planning. Town centres are dying. Change of use is required to turn them into medium density housing (such as the centre of Paris, with many four and five storey residential buildings). The nature of town centre business would then change from shops to services, as has already happened to a degree.

It's a very hard sell. People like their place in the country (or at least the suburbs). This is why real leadership would be required to drive such change.

I'm with you. I've seen those four and five storey apartment blocks in Paris, Bordeaux, Barcelona etc, and they might fit the bill. Might have to have a lift in them for building regs though.

There's a block at the southern tip of Preston Park, of up to 50 flats, which used to be a single house in large gardens. That might be the future.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Courtesy of Popbitch

 

[Hugo Rune]

Yes, the Tories changed it to include students, who, of course, return home when their courses have finished.

This has actually changed a lot under Brexit sadly.

British Universities are admired the world over and are a profound lever in our global soft power.

However, since we left the EU, European students have understandably deserted us. They were the ones who went home.

Rather than go to the wall, Universities have been able to replace the EU students from places like India and Nigeria. Students bringing their families over and staying after their courses finish is not uncommon. This has now been legislated against to some degree and I predict a number of Universities will be going out of existence unless the next Government puts up the loan.

Those European students are badly missed in the sector.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

So instead of looking to better yourself and find higher paid employment you take this selfish attitude, whine and point the finger at Johnny Foreigner pushing Brexit and inflation onto the rest of us. It also demonstrates a breathtaking lack of imagination and ambition.

Shocking.

Hilarious that supposedly left wing people become Torys the moment they have to justify mass immigration. "If you're unhappy with your lot simply get a better paying job". Imagine if this was said in the context of food banks or benefits

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This has actually changed a lot under Brexit sadly.

British Universities are admired the world over and are a profound lever in our global soft power.

However, since we left the EU, European students have understandably deserted us. They were the ones who went home.

Rather than go to the wall, Universities have been able to replace the EU students from places like India and Nigeria. Students bringing their families over and staying after their courses finish is not uncommon. This has now been legislated against to some degree and I predict a number of Universities will be going out of existence unless the next Government puts up the loan.

Those European students are badly missed in the sector.

There was no need to ditch Erasmus from the Brexit deal. Johnson was asked specifically to include it, but he was in such a rush to get his ‘oven ready deal’ through, it was neglected.