[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Biscuit]

It was suggested by many that Tony Blair was one of the best ever Tory Prime Ministers due to his policies.

Yes, his enormous spending on NHS, the police and public services just screams Tory doesn't it.

Jesus wept.

 

[jimhigham]

In a way I agree with you about the youth side of things. Though it kinda creates a divide between the youth and the older generation who are more likely to vote Conservative. Just say for arguments sake a young leader does emerge and gets people driven. The papers and news will find ways to smear that particular person to the point of a loss of a leader. I think this election was down to "getting brexit done" or the fact that people hated Corbyn so much they voted for the Conservatives out of spite. Now I'm no politician but it just seems like the next election will also be a forgone result with the amount of control they have with media in general. I spent enough time trying to support for long enough. Only to be told we have been pretty much decimated. We really didn't have a chance at all. With that I am going to step away and avoid the subject as a whole. It's a depressing and quite honestly quite a raw feeling still.

I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way but understand your frustration. One of the things a country needs to thrive is a vibrant civil society. That requires people who care enough to make a difference. Oddly, this result has tipped the balance in the other direction for me and makes me want to step off the sidelines and get involved (although with the Green Party). I hope you find your resolve again soon. All the best to you.

 

[Biscuit]

I shudder to think of a return to Blair or someone in his pseudo Tory guise becoming Labour leader. The truth is they probably would give the Tories a challenge, but what's the difference between voting for a blue Tory or a red one.

Classic. Slag off the one Labour lead that knew how to win a GE and call him a pseudo-Tory If someone with half the political savvy of Blair had lead Labour into either of the last GE's they'd have won.

 

[lawros left foot]

In a way I agree with you about the youth side of things. Though it kinda creates a divide between the youth and the older generation who are more likely to vote Conservative. Just say for arguments sake a young leader does emerge and gets people driven. The papers and news will find ways to smear that particular person to the point of a loss of a leader. I think this election was down to "getting brexit done" or the fact that people hated Corbyn so much they voted for the Conservatives out of spite. Now I'm no politician but it just seems like the next election will also be a forgone result with the amount of control they have with media in general. I spent enough time trying to support for long enough. Only to be told we have been pretty much decimated. We really didn't have a chance at all. With that I am going to step away and avoid the subject as a whole. It's a depressing and quite honestly quite a raw feeling still.

I agree with almost every word of this. I to, am going to step back for a while, and have a good think about the ramifications of this appalling result. As I e said elsewhere, I really fear for the future of a lot of people in our country.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I think you're wasting your time, mate.The msm, the BBC, and the Tories have told the electorate that it's Marxism, and they are happy to believe that. You're fighting many ,many years of indoctrination.

Your post illustrates the problem Labour has. If anyone disagrees they must be indoctrinated.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Corbyn claiming this morning that Labour "won the argument". https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

I would take issue with that. If you win an ideological argument then you have convinced people your way is right. Ergo, they vote for you and you win.

There's a lot in that Observer piece by him that I agree with but the headline shows what the problem with him and a lot of Labour activists, including a couple on here, is. Firstly, the blinkered assumption that just because YOU think you have a better argument the public agree with you. The public, very much, did not agree with you Jeremy. Secondly, that because you've assumed everyone agrees with you the fight is ideological. The fight is not just ideological. It is tactical, it is personality, it is sales, it is local. Kyle more or less kept his majority in Hove because he knows Hove and Portslade and they know him. A certain Irish agitator on this board called him a pale pink Tory. Well, he's got a red seat, unlike Bishop Auckland or Sedgefield or Leigh.

BBC reporting that Jess Phillips and Lisa Nandy are already putting their hats in to the ring. Let's hope they're not as deluded.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I feel I'm intruding at a wake but can I remind people talking up the right wing/biased media as an excuse, that the Corbyn led Labour party reeled in a 20+ point opinion poll lead down to 2 points during the 2017 general election campaign denying the Tories a majority. What was different this time?

A couple of items I noticed.

Instead of promising to enact the referendum result they promised a second referendum.

Instead of introducing a vaguely costed manifesto with a few populist policies they promised the moon and the stars all funded by someone else.

They won’t listen because there must be no compromise with the electorate. We are a bunch of brainwashed thickos so actually engaging with people that disagree simply won’t happen. That would disturb their sense of ‘truth.’ Reading some of the posts of recent pages it seems clear that this is a rerun of the post referendum period.

 

[Lever]

They won’t listen because there must be no compromise with the electorate. We are a bunch of brainwashed thickos so actually engaging with people that disagree simply won’t happen. That would disturb their sense of ‘truth.’ Reading some of the posts of recent pages it seems clear that this is a rerun of the post referendum period.

I think and hope you are wrong about that.
These are early days and the most vitriolic election in my lifetime has left many people raw and emotional. Give it a little time.... the Tory Election Victory is not the solution to our problems. It's what happens next.....

 

[Seagull27]

But to support a party like that, I would have to compromise my beliefs. I know what I see as the most beneficial form of governance for the whole country is not popular with the majority of the population, I accept that but, I still believe, given an even chance, socialism could and would work, but,there are too many forces ranged against it.
I don’t think that the right wing establishment in this country would ever allow a truly socialist agenda to ever succeed. To support a new centrist party made up of Blairites, one nation Tories, and LibDems, just to get into Government, for the sake of being in Government, would be like stopping supporting the Albion, and supporting Manchester United instead,cos they are more popular.

It may never be popular, but, I honestly believe that socialism is the best political system.

With the greatest respect, I just can't understand your viewpoint here. By continuing to staunchly support socialism, even when you admit it isn't popular among the public, will mean that none of those policies ever get implemented as the Tories remain in power. Surely it would be better to support a centrist party who might implement some of those policies, even if there were others you didn't agree with?

And once in power you'd have much more influence to persuade the government towards your viewpoint, than you would in opposition.

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[Chicken Run]

Secondly Labour outpoll Tories in the 18 - 40 age range. Tories poll at around 81% for 70+ age range. Time may shift voting patterns as youth saddled with debt and struggling to get on the housing ladder become more politicised and older Tory voters die off

To coin your phrase “die off” is irrelevant imho opinion as they are simply replaced by the next generation of ‘Older Tory’s’, it’s always been the same.

 

[lawros left foot]

With the greatest respect, I just can't understand your viewpoint here. By continuing to staunchly support socialism, even when you admit it isn't popular among the public, will mean that none of those policies ever get implemented as the Tories remain in power. Surely it would be better to support a centrist party who might implement some of those policies, even if there were others you didn't agree with?

And once in power you'd have much more influence to persuade the government towards your viewpoint, than you would in opposition.

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Maybe it’s too soon after what was a pretty traumatic defeat to contemplate selling out my principles again.
I supported Blair, right up till theIraq debacle, even after clause4, perhaps not enthusiastically, but, I was willing to accept some of his more centrist policies in anticipation of some more to my liking, and, at first it was okay.
I never liked Blair’s personality, too insincere, but, conversely I liked Brown, a man who at least, tried to do the right thing.
I only speak for myself, I don’t know what direction the party will take now, a more populist centrist agenda, or staying true to its socialist roots, who knows. A period of reflection, as the politicians say, is required, there’s no rush,as the Tories have a large enough majority to ignore any opposition to their plans.

 

[lawros left foot]

Your post illustrates the problem Labour has. If anyone disagrees they must be indoctrinated.

If anyone believes Labour is a Marxist party, they have been indoctrinated.

 

[Seagull27]

Maybe it’s too soon after what was a pretty traumatic defeat to contemplate selling out my principles again.
I supported Blair, right up till theIraq debacle, even after clause4, perhaps not enthusiastically, but, I was willing to accept some of his more centrist policies in anticipation of some more to my liking, and, at first it was okay.
I never liked Blair’s personality, too insincere, but, conversely I liked Brown, a man who at least, tried to do the right thing.
I only speak for myself, I don’t know what direction the party will take now, a more populist centrist agenda, or staying true to its socialist roots, who knows. A period of reflection, as the politicians say, is required, there’s no rush,as the Tories have a large enough majority to ignore any opposition to their plans.

I get that, and I agree a period of reflection is needed for all opposition parties.

I'm just thoroughly pissed off that left-of-centre parties got 55% of the vote and yet we've got a Tory government with a huge majority. If the Lib Dems and Labour had come to some sort of agreement like Brexit Party did with the Tories then we might not be in this position.

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[lawros left foot]

I get that, and I agree a period of reflection is needed for all opposition parties.

I'm just thoroughly pissed off that left-of-centre parties got 55% of the vote and yet we've got a Tory government with a huge majority. If the Lib Dems and Labour had come to some sort of agreement like Brexit Party did with the Tories then we might not be in this position.

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I agree, but, most Labour people just can’t bring themselves to trust the LDs after 2010. You have to admit, the Tories played a blinder on that, get the Lib Dem’s to join you in a coalition, bring in austerity, and the smaller party and the EU,ends up getting the blame from the electorate. Brilliant, really.
Possibly my more pragmatic side will be able to accept a more centrist party after the emotion of this election has settled down, I don’t know.

Back in the 80s I met a real Communist, he was a full on Soviet loving fanatic. He could see no wrong in the Communist regimes and, espoused their supposed virtues at every opportunity.
I thought he was a sad, delusional old man.
I hope I’m not headed that way.

 

[Seagull27]

I agree, but, most Labour people just can’t bring themselves to trust the LDs after 2010. You have to admit, the Tories played a blinder on that, get the Lib Dem’s to join you in a coalition, bring in austerity, and the smaller party and the EU,ends up getting the blame from the electorate. Brilliant, really.
Possibly my more pragmatic side will be able to accept a more centrist party after the emotion of this election has settled down, I don’t know.

Back in the 80s I met a real Communist, he was a full on Soviet loving fanatic. He could see no wrong in the Communist regimes and, espoused their supposed virtues at every opportunity.
I thought he was a sad, delusional old man.
I hope I’m not headed that way.

Completely agree, and on the Lib Dems' part it has to go down as one of the worst political decisions in recent history. They had over 50 MPs, had picked up a lot of momentum, a lot of youth support, and a charismatic leader who gained respect from all sides. Imagine what position they'd be in now if they'd held on to all of that.

Purely from a policy perspective, a huge number of people are crying out for a party similar to what they represent, but people don't trust them and they are just so insignificant now I can't see them getting back to the levels of support they had 10 years ago. They should have cleaned up the remain vote in this election, but they barely increased their percentage and actually lost a seat.

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[Mayonaise]

Why not leave the labour party to real socialists. Are democratic socialists not allowed to have a political party?

I am not arguing that a socialist political party shouldn't exist - I am suggesting that such a party is currently unelectable in modern Britain as, depressingly we have just seen.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

If anyone believes Labour is a Marxist party, they have been indoctrinated.

Ken Livingston’s agrees with you (LBC this morning). Apparently Labour did nothing wrong and the answer is to ‘regulate’ the internet and the printed press. A lady rang in to say she has been blind from birth and has never read or even picked up a newspaper and she did not vote Labour. She and I’m sure plenty of others listening felt rather patronized by this line that we are all brainwashed. Labour is beginning to resemble a cult, with its advocates feeling they are revealers of truth.

 

[RossyG]

Your post illustrates the problem Labour has. If anyone disagrees they must be indoctrinated.

For decades, the hard left have used two tactics on dissenters.

1. False consciousness. “They’ve been brainwashed into not voting for us.”

2. Labelling. “If they are against us then they’re fascists, racists, Nazis etc...”

 

[happypig]

The election was lost the day Labour voted to have it. That was plainly obvious and can be put down to two things : Brexit and Corbyn.

Brexit; a lot of voters wanted to leave the EU, maybe not a majority any more but those who still wanted it, wanted it enough to change their traditional voting allegiance.
Corbyn; If Brexit were arguable, it would have taken monumental leadership appeal to convince Labour voters that they wouldn't sell them out, something Corbyn doesn't have. He is unable to overcome the deep-seated mistrust that centrist voters have of him.

Labour is now at a crossroads, down one path is the centre ground with leftish policies (like renationalising the railways) and a leader with appeal. Down the other path is political purity at the cost of losing the next election.

 

[Two Professors]

If anyone believes Labour is a Marxist party, they have been indoctrinated.

Doesn't take much indoctrination to see the big red star on Labour propaganda as Marxist,though.