[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[London Irish]

This conveniently ignores the fact that in 2017, Labour did not have anything resembling an anti-Brexit policy. The other key difference I think was that in 2019, they were promising something new every day. After a while, it all sounds pie in the sky and easy meat for Tories to squeal to the ignorant about "the magic money tree" even though the Tories have never provided society anything, unlike Labour. (The NHS, free schooling, public libraries, you name it - these things never happen on a Tory watch)

According to Labour MPs who were deselected along the red wall, like Caroline Flint, on the doorsteps people were saying two things in equal measure - a) we want Brexit and Labour aren't delivering that, and b) I'm sorry I can't vote for your party all the while Jeremy Corbyn is leader.

Let's face it, he's just too left-wing for many, he's got a dubious record with the company he's kept (and that counts for a lot with many patriots it seems), and he simply doesn't present as a statesman.

It's a shame. With the right leader, I genuinely do feel socialism might have had a chance, but Labour do need to do what Alan Johnson said in the aftermath of the recent GE - "Momentum have been disastrous for this party and therefore for the country. I want Momentum GONE".

Spot on, Alan. Spot on.

Alan Johnson was the person appointed by Harriet Harman to lead Labour's referendum campaign in 2016, he was utterly useless, you never saw him once in the entire campaign. Even now, he's still arguing Labour should have supported THERESA MAY's Brexit deal. That would have utterly destroyed the Labour Party down to 20% if Labour had followed his advice.

On Magic Money Trees. There's always a magic money tree when banks need to be bailed out for billions and billions. Endless costly foreign wars, have a blank cheque.

Funnily enough there is never a magic money tree if someone wants to give old people dignity in retirement, ensure kids are not piled up in hospital corridors or give some poor sod sleeping in a filthy doorway a help up

 

[Simster]

And how futile those two years have been? It achieved nothing but division and delay.

If it was so great, it makes the decision to support a GE look even more benighted. Thank God Jezza's hubris did us all a favour.

I am more interested in which leadership combo is going to lead to this change of 'luck'?

It certainly has been futile, but that'll be down to a huge number of morons acting like turkeys voting for Christmas and given a thumping majority to the least trustworthy leader we've ever seen. An appalling man. Voting for someone who lies about just about everything, runs away from debate, refuses to acknowledge a love child, uses racist rhetoric, it is simply unbelievable just how many stupid and/or moral-free people there are in this country.

 

[Titanic]

It certainly has been futile, but that'll be down to a huge number of morons acting like turkeys voting for Christmas and given a thumping majority to the least trustworthy leader we've ever seen. An appalling man. Voting for someone who lies about just about everything, runs away from debate, refuses to acknowledge a love child, uses racist rhetoric, it is simply unbelievable just how many stupid and/or moral-free people there are in this country.

Is that a direct quote from Lady Nugee?

 

[London Irish]

Absolute nonsense. Unless Labour can re-engage in Scotland there won't be a Labour government again. At least not on their own. I don't see 48 seats being turned over without a Labour promise of IndyRef2 or else it's a coalition. Breaking up the Union will be manna to the Tories who will make that their next big scare story after Brexit. Corbyn has lost so much ground in the north Labour can't focus on Scotland anyway.

Scotland is gone thanks to the Tories, it will be independent now for certain so forget about that, the SNP is Labour in Scotland, they are identical parties

 

[Simster]

Alan Johnson was the person appointed by Harriet Harman to lead Labour's referendum campaign in 2016, he was utterly useless, you never saw him once in the entire campaign. Even now, he's still arguing Labour should have supported THERESA MAY's Brexit deal. That would have utterly destroyed the Labour Party down to 20% if Labour had followed his advice.

On Magic Money Trees. There's always a magic money tree when banks need to be bailed out for billions and billions. Endless costly foreign wars, have a blank cheque.

Funnily enough there is never a magic money tree if someone wants to give old people dignity in retirement, ensure kids are not piled up in hospital corridors or give some poor sod sleeping in a filthy doorway a help up

I'm not commenting on Alan Johnson's suitability to run a Brexit referendum campaign. Frankly I know nothing about that, which probably makes your point for you. However, it doesn't mean he's wrong about Momentum, because he isn't. They're a pressure group who have hounded out the large centre-left portion of the party and are responsible for turning Labour into what they are now - heavy on membership, but lighter on public support than they have ever been for FIFTY years, and wiped off the map in Scotland. Unless Momentum are kicked out, Labour are done, it's that simple. To argue otherwise is like arguing black is white.

 

[London Irish]

I can agree with you that the election didn't prove that the labour right or libdems are popular, but I will say that me and many many people I know would prefer a liberal centre-left government but lent our votes to the socialist left because, as you say, Labour were the only alternative to Johnson. The fact that the core Labour vote then ****ed off to the Tories and left us holding the can does not go down well with us. Labour will need to show a clear move towards the kind of party we want if they want to keep our votes next time round, or we will vote Libdem / Green even if it looks a lost cause in our constituencies.

Those are fair comments, but the retreat into the Remainiac drivel that lost all the Labour Leave voting seats wasn't on Corbyn, he fought against it but was overwhelmed by all the big city liberals in the party - and Caroline Lucas for the Greens was as equally responsible, she lived in an 80% Remain voting seat and didn't give a crap about any other progressive having to defend big Leave voting seats

 

[blue-shifted]

As I knocked on doors canvassing in the lead up to last Thursday's vote Jeramy Corbyn was seen as increadably divisive individual on the door step by some but certainly by no means all and although he has been vilified by the Establishment on a daily over the past four years he has remained steadfast in his beliefs while never resulting to the low tactics that the Tories and their establishment friends use.

Neither do I agree with Tony Blair when he says the manifesto was the problem on the contrary on the doorstep people were supporting Labours stance on the NHS, house building and Education but I do think the manifesto was far to broard and as such confusing and as the campain progressed the spending plans developed a life of there of and once that happened then credibility became a doorstop issue.

Finally Brexit while I felt that Labours plan to put the final deal reached with the EU should be put back to the people in a second referendum this was seen by many as none democratic , the Tories and Dominic Cummings played a cleaver game setting traps that were so subtle and nuanced and labour just kept walking into them.

So to sum up in my opinion labour lost the election not because they were to left wing but for four main reasons

1. Jeramy Corbyns low approval ratings
2. Over ambitious manifesto
3. Brexit stance
4. The Tories had Dominic Cummings directing things

Good on you for getting out there. It gives you more standpoint to comment on what people are thinking than the great majority on here.

I agree about the approval ratings. I generally did like Corbyn, but for the life of me I have no idea why, for someone who believed in his cause and hated the idea of the harmful effects of Tory policy on the country, he didn't recognise earlier in the year and step aside.

It's like he hated the idea of a centrist Labour leader as much as the idea of a Tory one. Loads of momentum types seem to feel like this. No idea why. Yes to live in a genuinely socialist country would be wonderful, but we're not going to get that, so surely Blairism is better than the hard right tories

 

[happypig]

The LibDems lose every time because of:

Our voting system.In so many constituencies it's a wasted vote.
Their lack of resources (Tories have business, Labour have the Unions)
They are seen as weak and wet - scandal wearing, muesli eating 50+ idealists.

I fundamentally disagree with regards to a centrist government - tell me, how many elections did Blair win when compared to Corbyn?

Oh well, you drag the Labour Party to the left and disappear into oblivion.

The Lib Dems fail nationally because they claim to be too many things; with Labour and Conservative you know they are at either end of the (tolerable) political spectrum. If you moved to a new area and knew nothing about it you could be fairly confident of what the local Labour and Conservatives would be saying, both at a national and local level.
With the LibDems they change depending on who they are standing against, for example in Eastbourne they will claim to be "the only party who can beat the Tories" and espouse fairly left of centre views, attempting to take the Labour vote.
In areas like Hornsey and Wood Green, they will push more centre-right policies and try and take Tory votes.
In Scotland they claim to be the alternative to the SNP.

I wouldn't trust a single one of them.

 

[Simster]

Is that a direct quote from Lady Nugee?

No, it's all just fact. But you're a smug Tory type who feels accusations of crass stupidity in voting for him are merely water off a duck's back because of safety in numbers. But that's my point, there really are a lot of thick people in this country.

Or are you saying he DOESN'T lie, DIDN'T run away from the toughest interviewer on the circuit, and DOESN'T refuse to recognise all of his children? <--- I bet anyone 15p that you'll ignore this bit

 

[London Irish]

I'm not commenting on Alan Johnson's suitability to run a Brexit referendum campaign. Frankly I know nothing about that, which probably makes your point for you. However, it doesn't mean he's wrong about Momentum, because he isn't. They're a pressure group who have hounded out the large centre-left portion of the party and are responsible for turning Labour into what they are now - heavy on membership, but lighter on public support than they have ever been for FIFTY years, and wiped off the map in Scotland. Unless Momentum are kicked out, Labour are done, it's that simple. To argue otherwise is like arguing black is white.

Please look at the election result in Scotland in 2015, Labour were left with one seat - that's when they were wiped out. That's
a) before Corbyn was elected leader
b) before Momentum were even created

Basic facts that don't fit your narrative I'm afraid

 

[blue-shifted]

Those are fair comments, but the retreat into the Remainiac drivel that lost all the Labour Leave voting seats wasn't on Corbyn, he fought against it but was overwhelmed by all the big city liberals in the party - and Caroline Lucas for the Greens was as equally responsible, she lived in an 80% Remain voting seat and didn't give a crap about any other progressive having to defend big Leave voting seats

Not sure why she should.

It's not her job to ensure northern labour MP's keep their seats. She has to represent her constituents

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

This is total rubbish. In fact, you only have to look at this last election to see that in action.

The LibDems were the only party to promise to remain. 48% of people right there, in an election 2 or 3 posts up you just admitted was all about Brexit. Yet people like me ended up voting Labour. Why? I'm no fan of this terrible Labour front bench (nor the Lib Dem leadership if the truth be told) but if my anti-Tory vote had been worth anything where I live, I'd clearly have voted yellow.

People don't vote for the Lib Dems because they don't make a difference. They don't make a difference because of the FPTP system which only benefits 2 party politics. If we suddenly had PR, their vote share would immediately jump several points and further vote share would be dictated by the perception people have of their competence. Really quite obvious, and the only people who wouldn't agree are staunch supporters of the two big parties like you, who only keep their grip on vote share because of the system.

I’m not a staunch supporter of either of the two main parties but I am completely against changing the voting system. With PR, constituents lose the ability to choose their own representative. That has been very important in this election as many people have watched their MPs vote in the opposite way to the people who elected them. The biggest gainers in PR are the party machines.
So there is a coherent argument against PR that is not just about party partisanship. You may not agree with it but you shouldn’t deny it exists.

 

[blue-shifted]

Alan Johnson was the person appointed by Harriet Harman to lead Labour's referendum campaign in 2016, he was utterly useless, you never saw him once in the entire campaign. Even now, he's still arguing Labour should have supported THERESA MAY's Brexit deal. That would have utterly destroyed the Labour Party down to 20% if Labour had followed his advice.

On Magic Money Trees. There's always a magic money tree when banks need to be bailed out for billions and billions. Endless costly foreign wars, have a blank cheque.

Funnily enough there is never a magic money tree if someone wants to give old people dignity in retirement, ensure kids are not piled up in hospital corridors or give some poor sod sleeping in a filthy doorway a help up

Maybe it would be worse for Labour (maybe not), but it would have been better for the country. Now we will get brexit and policies Boris style (oh and his right wing cabinet, Cummings JRM etc).

It won't be pretty

 

[Simster]

Please look at the election result in Scotland in 2015, Labour were left with one seat - that's when they were wiped out. That's
a) before Corbyn was elected leader
b) before Momentum were even created

Basic facts that don't fit your narrative I'm afraid

No I'm afraid they do.

What about this over-reaching fact: Labour haven't won an election in this country without a centre-leaning front bench since 1974.

 

[Titanic]

No, it's all just fact. But you're a smug Tory type who feels accusations of crass stupidity in voting for him are merely water off a duck's back because of safety in numbers. But that's my point, there really are a lot of thick people in this country.

Or are you saying he DOESN'T lie, DIDN'T run away from the toughest interviewer on the circuit, and DOESN'T refuse to recognise all of his children? <--- I bet anyone 15p that you'll ignore this bit

They weren't 'smug Tories' that voted for him in Blyth, Sedgefield, Redcar, Darlington, Stockton South, Bassetlaw, Bishop Auckland etc...but I guess you are saying, like Lady Nugee that they are all thick?

As to lies - it's not an impressive or desirable character trait, but clearly doesn't upset most people enough to put them off voting for him.

Avoiding AN just seems like a rather wise sidestep.

And regarding his children... I have no idea.

Hope that wasn't too costly for you.

 

[Simster]

I’m not a staunch supporter of either of the two main parties but I am completely against changing the voting system. With PR, constituents lose the ability to choose their own representative. That has been very important in this election as many people have watched their MPs vote in the opposite way to the people who elected them. The biggest gainers in PR are the party machines.
So there is a coherent argument against PR that is not just about party partisanship. You may not agree with it but you shouldn’t deny it exists.

Happy to agree that PR isn't without it's failings. But FPTP doesn't solve the issue you highlight, except for the case of a handful of marginals. My MP ranks 640ish out of 650 in attendance, he doesn't campaign for anything meaningful on behalf of his constituents, yet gets in here because of the colour of his rosette. That is the case in at least 500 of the 650 seats I'd guess (although perhaps a lower figure in this unusual, Brexit-dominated election).

 

[Billy the Fish]

It certainly has been futile, but that'll be down to a huge number of morons acting like turkeys voting for Christmas and given a thumping majority to the least trustworthy leader we've ever seen. An appalling man. Voting for someone who lies about just about everything, runs away from debate, refuses to acknowledge a love child, uses racist rhetoric, it is simply unbelievable just how many stupid and/or moral-free people there are in this country.

Despite everything you've said being true about Johnson he is still the lesser of two evils.

The "Turkeys voting for Xmas" line is a bit of a fallacy IMHO, for the vast majority of working people it just doesn't apply. Of course the very very disadvantaged would be better off under Corbyn but most people on an average wage wouldn't be, especially if he bankrupts the country while renationalising everything. Even if it is possible to carry out everything in their manifesto I wouldn't trust Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott to deliver it in a million years. Working people are better off under the Tories.

 

[Simster]

They weren't 'smug Tories' that voted for him in Blyth, Sedgefield, Redcar, Darlington, Stockton South, Bassetlaw, Bishop Auckland etc...but I guess you are saying, like Lady Nugee that they are all thick?

Ignorant, rather than thick. But yes, these people are idiots.

As to lies - it's not an impressive or desirable character trait, but clearly doesn't upset most people enough to put them off voting for him.

Avoiding AN just seems like a rather wise sidestep.

And regarding his children... I have no idea.

Hope that wasn't too costly for you.

Absolutely amazing. Happy to vote in a pathological liar who is scared of being held to account. And if you don't know about his children, well perhaps you should. Not that it would make any difference to you because he's not *gasp* Labour.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Those are fair comments, but the retreat into the Remainiac drivel that lost all the Labour Leave voting seats wasn't on Corbyn, he fought against it but was overwhelmed by all the big city liberals in the party - and Caroline Lucas for the Greens was as equally responsible, she lived in an 80% Remain voting seat and didn't give a crap about any other progressive having to defend big Leave voting seats

But if he hadn't done it then the centrist votes wouldn't have gone to Labour. We shouldn't forget that 53% of people voted for parties that had a second referendum in their manifesto.

In hindsight, the election was lost as soon as it was called. After six months of fighting against Brexit in parliament, there was no way the opposition would win an election unless Brexit had been resolved one way or another. It turns out that there were a majority of MP's in the old parliament that ran in this election on a second referendum platform. So they could have got it, they didn't have to have the election... they caved. It was all over then. Almost irrelevant how they would have campaigned. And to repeat the point above, 53% of people voted for parties favouring a second referendum. But that means nothing in our FPTP system. Apparently there was a big mandate for Leave.

 

[Simster]

Despite everything you've said being true about Johnson he is still the lesser of two evils.

The "Turkeys voting for Xmas" line is a bit of a fallacy IMHO, for the vast majority of working people it just doesn't apply. Of course the very very disadvantaged would be better off under Corbyn but most people on an average wage wouldn't be, especially if he bankrupts the country while renationalising everything. Even if it is possible to carry out everything in their manifesto I wouldn't trust Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott to deliver it in a million years. Working people are better off under the Tories.

But they're not - not at all. First thing Johnson is doing is removing alignment of workers right between the UK and the EU. Most of those new Tory voters in Blyth and Hartlepool will barely have noticed. They will though, when zero hour contracts at increasingly standard and having no minimum wage are explained away by the moronic Tories running the country as "the UK being competitive". Maybe those people will join the increasing numbers living on the streets and out of soup kitchens? These high numbers are now so visible to all but the most blinkered.

Here is a great rant that explains the difference between the Tories and a progressive centre-left Labour which highlights the difference between the two parties:

https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1207071942601248772