[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It might not be the worst idea ......

sorry, didn't mean that

I know where you live

(No I don't. But feel free if you want me to send me flowers and chocolates )

Edit, bugger, you don't know where I live either

 

[Weststander]

That is ****ing hilarious! Burgon really is a complete **** and as thick as mince.

Interviewer: "So you would go to Brussels, tell them you want to remain and ask if you can negotiate a deal to leave?"

Glad it met your high comic standards. An astonishing performance by Burgon.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That is ****ing hilarious! Burgon really is a complete **** and as thick as mince.

Interviewer: "So you would go to Brussels, tell them you want to remain and ask if you can negotiate a deal to leave?"

Would it be inappropriate to say that he looks like a lardy ****?

Still, that doesn't mean he doesn't know the difference between a Jaffa Cake and Navy Cake, though, does it? Fact.

 

[Surf's Up]

So no answer then, just going for the "brazen it out" lying option about what a word means, fair enough, Johnson taught you well

Oh, sorry - the definition I used is available in both the Oxford and Cambridge Dictionaries and, as I am not so sure you are aware, there is more than one definition of the meaning of the word "coup".

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

It would be a mistake to hold on to that statistic. People change their voting as they get older. The current crop of 18-25s will settle down, get a mortgage etc etc. I was once in the Young Socialists ! and am now moderate left (I have no problem with Nationalization although think it should happen very slowly).

Life (and the economy) is changing rapidly - the pace of growing inequality is accelerating - the idea that 18-25s will settle down and get a mortgage flies in the face of the reality of zero-hour contracts, the rise of low paid service jobs, the increasing cost of housing etc. Society has changed dramatically since the 70s, 80s and 90s. Furthermore, the 18-25s (and younger) are the very people who will have to deal with the climate crisis and the reality the we may be hitting irreversible change as they look to settle down and raise a family. There is a dramatic shift occurring among the under 25s in terms of how they view the world and what they are willing to accept. What hasn't happened yet is that the under-25s haven't drawn political conclusions - they are demanding that the politicians 'do something' - but it will not take long for them to realise that the politicians will do nothing and that a mass movement is needed to change society on a global basis.

There has been talk of terrorism and protecting British society - and the reality is that the real threat of terrorism in the future is likely to be eco-terrorism as a section of the climate change movement (primarily from middle-class backgrounds) reject society and regard eco-terrorism as the only way forward. That is potentially the real terrorist danger for western European society in the future.

You need to actually face the reasons you lost working class votes and a failure to do so would be unbelievably irresponsible.

It is clear why the LP lost the election - a number of factors - not necessarily in order of importance -
1. The shift from respecting the referendum result in 2017 - to adopting an effectively remain position in 2019 - all bar 3 (I think it was) of the seats that the LP lost were in Leave voting constituencies
2. In Scotland the refusal of Corbyn to support an independence referendum allowed the Tory SNP to claim they were representing working class Scottish voters.
3. Blairite controlled local councils have implemented widespread cuts to local services - in many cases the Tories have been the ones opposing the cuts (like with the library on Hove)
4. A vicious smear campaign directed against Corbyn by the right-wing media - while ignoring the racist, homophobic, xenophobic and anti-Semitic antics of the Tories
5. Blairite MPs attacking Corbyn (as they have done incessantly since he was elected LP leader)
6. Former Blairite MPs calling on voters to vote Tory in order to defeat Corbyn
7. The failure of Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum to build on the momentum generated by the 2017 election campaign.

Stop searching for ideological purity.

This is the type of rhetoric that is common from people who don't really want anything to change - this is not about 'ideological purity' - the LP manifesto wasn't that radical a manifesto - but the issue comes down to the social, political, economic and environmental crisis that is looming on the horizon and what is necessary to respond and deal with it.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

So losing elections over and over again is fine for you as long as you see it reaching some other purpose? You think Kinnock doing that for 9 years is fine? But the left doesn't even get 4?

What you deride as the Momentun formula gained 3 million votes in 2017, the highest jump in the Labour vote since 1945, raising a vote that has been on the decline since 1997.

Apparently more than 20,000 people have joined the LP since the election.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Two related questions for you (to which there are two short answers): is the over-65 category due to get bigger or smaller into the future?; is the 18-44 category due to get bigger or smaller in the near future?
If you give the right answer to these questions, you might accept that this is even more problematic for the Labour Party.

Both catagories are due to get bigger - but I would argue that the opposite will happen -

The British economy (and world economy) is facing a renewed downturn in the next 6-24 months - the Tories will implement attacks on pensioners because they will have no choice from their perspective - and the 18-44 category will face attacks on jobs, wages and working conditions are companies attempt to ride out cuts to profits by dumping the cost onto workers (and this isn't even talking about the fact that all semblance of doing anything for the environment will be chucked in the bin).

The French government is currently under siege with two general strikes last week and more planned - 10million workers on strike and two million on the streets - over attacks on pensions. This is what the Tories are likely facing.

A big majority does not mean political stability - stability is determined by economic circumstances and the political response - both of which are likely to see an upsurge of opposition to the Tories (and the CWU are the first ones to the picket lines on this).

 

[Weststander]

Apparently more than 20,000 people have joined the LP since the election.

Yes, many have been calling 5Live and LBC. Desperate to oust the Corbynista's from their control.

 

[beorhthelm]

This really isn't true. You perceive it as a load of young militants, but Labour's membership is 70% over 45 year olds, mainly from ABC1 groups. This is the kind of misdirection the new Labour leader will need to address. The perception is very different from the reality.

on reflection this isnt very working class... is this part of the problem?

 

[Wardy's twin]

Apparently more than 20,000 people have joined the LP since the election.

Probably so that they can stop any more extreme left wing candidates from taking office.

 

[Wardy's twin]

on reflection this isnt very working class... is this part of the problem?

what does working class mean it just does not fit the modern world we are in.

 

[beorhthelm]

what does working class mean it just does not fit the modern world we are in.

well imo working class doesnt means what it used to, a vague label today. however ABC1 is very much not the working classes under under any definition.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yes, many have been calling 5Live and LBC. Desperate to oust the Corbynista's from their control.

Probably so that they can stop any more extreme left wing candidates from taking office.

Wishful thinking

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

well imo working class doesnt means what it used to, a vague label today. however ABC1 is very much not the working classes under under any definition.

Working class is anyone who works with hand or brain for a wage/salary

 

[drew]

Apparently more than 20,000 people have joined the LP since the election.

Membership is irrelevant. Labour's party membership is probably 3 times that of the tories but it didn't win them the election.

 

[Beach Hut]

Working class is anyone who works with hand or brain for a wage/salary

Totally wrong, I used my brain in my job and was not working class.

Given the way the economy has changed I doubt working class is really valid now given it meant people in industries of which the majority no longer exist.

 

[Beach Hut]

Membership is irrelevant. Labour's party membership is probably 3 times that of the tories but it didn't win them the election.

I would not be so sure, it would be interesting to know how many Consrvatives rushed to join the Labour Party to elect Corbyn

 

[beorhthelm]

Working class is anyone who works with hand or brain for a wage/salary

well done, you've qualified just about everyone as working class. even the millionaires

 

[clapham_gull]

Life (and the economy) is changing rapidly - the pace of growing inequality is accelerating - the idea that 18-25s will settle down and get a mortgage flies in the face of the reality of zero-hour contracts, the rise of low paid service jobs, the increasing cost of housing etc. Society has changed dramatically since the 70s, 80s and 90s. Furthermore, the 18-25s (and younger) are the very people who will have to deal with the climate crisis and the reality the we may be hitting irreversible change as they look to settle down and raise a family. There is a dramatic shift occurring among the under 25s in terms of how they view the world and what they are willing to accept. What hasn't happened yet is that the under-25s haven't drawn political conclusions - they are demanding that the politicians 'do something' - but it will not take long for them to realise that the politicians will do nothing and that a mass movement is needed to change society on a global basis.

There has been talk of terrorism and protecting British society - and the reality is that the real threat of terrorism in the future is likely to be eco-terrorism as a section of the climate change movement (primarily from middle-class backgrounds) reject society and regard eco-terrorism as the only way forward. That is potentially the real terrorist danger for western European society in the future.


It is clear why the LP lost the election - a number of factors - not necessarily in order of importance -
1. The shift from respecting the referendum result in 2017 - to adopting an effectively remain position in 2019 - all bar 3 (I think it was) of the seats that the LP lost were in Leave voting constituencies
2. In Scotland the refusal of Corbyn to support an independence referendum allowed the Tory SNP to claim they were representing working class Scottish voters.
3. Blairite controlled local councils have implemented widespread cuts to local services - in many cases the Tories have been the ones opposing the cuts (like with the library on Hove)
4. A vicious smear campaign directed against Corbyn by the right-wing media - while ignoring the racist, homophobic, xenophobic and anti-Semitic antics of the Tories
5. Blairite MPs attacking Corbyn (as they have done incessantly since he was elected LP leader)
6. Former Blairite MPs calling on voters to vote Tory in order to defeat Corbyn
7. The failure of Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum to build on the momentum generated by the 2017 election campaign.


This is the type of rhetoric that is common from people who don't really want anything to change - this is not about 'ideological purity' - the LP manifesto wasn't that radical a manifesto - but the issue comes down to the social, political, economic and environmental crisis that is looming on the horizon and what is necessary to respond and deal with it.

Your obsession with "Blairism" conveniently forgets that modernisation of the Labour Party began with Kinnock with the baton being passed to John Smith.

 

[Chicken Run]

'Fury and collective depression': Jeremy Corbyn confronted by Labour MPs after election loss http://news.sky.com/story/fury-and-...ed-by-labour-mps-after-election-loss-11889356