[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[Bold Seagull]

On your very last sentence, Brown/Blair/many others justify PFI because it accelerated the building of new school and hospital buildings.

[That’s not an argument by me. Just relaying what has always been said].

We’ll be at the same point soon as the mid90s. A decade or more of not undertaking capital projects, repairing schools, new construction, and it will need to be done and the cost will be huge. Unless we have a government prepared to raise the money and actually pay for it, got to fear more of the same to come.

 

[Weststander]

And what about the companies that took pension holidays. Unilever did more to damage their pension scheme than Brown ever did.

An extract from an article in 2004


Unilever, the maker of Wall's ice cream and Persil enjoyed seven years of pension holidays. It not only saved millions of pounds but in 1999 also swiped the fund's £270m "surplus", adding it to Unilever's profits. Since 1992 it has stripped £1.2bn from its fund and about two thirds, £726m, was handed back to shareholders in the form of higher profits and bigger dividends. Bitter? Unilever pensioners certainly are. They have run a long-term campaign for the money to be used to boost their pensions rather than directors' salaries, but without success.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2004/jul/10/pensions.jobsandmoney

[MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION], I like your arguments, but that’s a classic Whataboutism! Not commenting directly on [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION]’s point.

Yes, you are right with some pension schemes. That had a big impact on those schemes too.

But Brown robbed £20b per annum in tax that had previously been redirected back to all pension schemes. This affected every single pension scheme in the UK, including the small defined contribution scheme I was in. Damaging for 10’s millions of future pensioners. The damage to the compound growth on every single defined contribution scheme, as well as many defined benefit schemes, was hugely significant. Adversely affecting all future pensioners.

But because it was very technical tax change, hard to fathom for many, Brown’s move in 1997 never got the publicity it deserved.

 

[Weststander]

We’ll be at the same point soon as the mid90s. A decade or more of not undertaking capital projects, repairing schools, new construction, and it will need to be done and the cost will be huge. Unless we have a government prepared to raise the money and actually pay for it, got to fear more of the same to come.

From anecdotal stuff I’ve come across in my life, such spending is now on the move again. Austerity on capital projects has now fizzled out. Hopefully this time without PFI’s (not said as a dig against Labour, as the Tories and Coatlition used the model too). The new £485m Royal Sussex looks amazing already and is being paid for straight out of central government funds.

It seems obvious to me (do you agree?), that no party will hold overall control from the next general election, so I think that any coalition will spend on infrastructure.

 

[beorhthelm]

And what about the companies that took pension holidays. Unilever did more to damage their pension scheme than Brown ever did.

yes, and they are liable to make up the short fall. does this make Brown's policy right?

 

[Weststander]

yes, and they are liable to make up the short fall. does this make Brown's policy right?

No it doesn’t. Completetly unjustifiable and it adversely affected the pension fund values of 10’s millions of low and middle earners. Why the hell did a Labour chancellor want to inflict that damage, then stubbornly refuse to budge on it?

 

[cunning fergus]

On your very last sentence, Brown/Blair/many others justify PFI because it accelerated the building of new school and hospital buildings.

[That’s not an argument by me. Just relaying what has always been said].

Sure, they will be the same people who point to the growth rate under Blair/Brown and say look wasnt that good too?

The truth is of course that the growth rate was stoked by formenting irresponsible economic practices, especially by the banks and private finance.

What happened there?

The taxpayer took it in the arse and bailed them out. PFI and 2008 are two cheeks of the same austerity arse both consequences of allowing capitalists a free run. The EU loves shit like PFI, it brings the markets into the heart of Govt spending, its why Blairites and Tories are lining up to embrace each other to remain in the EU.

As if they havent done enough damage already.

 

[cunning fergus]

No it doesn’t. Completetly unjustifiable and it adversely affected the pension fund values of 10’s millions of low and middle earners. Why the hell did a Labour chancellor want to inflict that damage, then stubbornly refuse to budge on it?

Another consequence was it stoked the housing market, people understood it was better to have an asset for a pension, and paid for by a tenant.

Dont forget he also abolished boom amd bust.......the daft tory shithouse.

 

[Postman Pat]

Ian Austin, MP for Dudley North, has become the ninth MP to quit Labour this week.

Mr Austin told the Express and Star newspaper that he was quitting because of the party's "lurch to the left" under Jeremy Corbyn and the failure to tackle anti-Semitism in the party.

But he said he had no plans to join the new Independent Group of former Labour and Tory MPs.

 

[Titanic]

Labour MP Ian Austin quits party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

"Ian Austin, MP for Dudley North, has become the ninth MP to quit Labour this week.

Mr Austin told the Express and Star newspaper that he was quitting because of the party's "lurch to the left" under Jeremy Corbyn and the failure to tackle anti-Semitism in the party.

But he said he had no plans to join the new Independent Group of former Labour and Tory MPs."

Interesting... not just because it is another MP deserting Corbyn's Labour, but because it exposes the weakness of the TIG position, being so anti-BrExit.

#splinters

 

[Biscuit]

I’m ready, please justify the splurge of PFI contracts to the tune of £300bn......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...arillion-capita-financial-crash-a8202661.html

Blair a leftie........lmfao.

Did you read my post and the one I was replying too?

Someone had said 'it's a shame funding schools and hospitals is seen as hard left' I stated that Blair did exactly that, and he isn't considered hard left. You've managed to quite miraculously miss the point and embarrasses yourself at the same time, all the while agreeing with what I'd said originally.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Labour MP Ian Austin quits party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

"Ian Austin, MP for Dudley North, has become the ninth MP to quit Labour this week.

Mr Austin told the Express and Star newspaper that he was quitting because of the party's "lurch to the left" under Jeremy Corbyn and the failure to tackle anti-Semitism in the party.

But he said he had no plans to join the new Independent Group of former Labour and Tory MPs."

Interesting... not just because it is another MP deserting Corbyn's Labour, but because it exposes the weakness of the TIG position, being so anti-BrExit.

#splinters

He was always too fat to play cricket for England anyway.

 

[Titanic]

"Mr Austin, an MP since 2005, told BBC West Midlands: "This is the most difficult decision I've ever had to take but I've taken it because I've become ashamed of the Labour Party.

"I grew up listening to my dad, who was a refugee from the Holocaust, teaching me about the evils of hatred and prejudice.

"One of the main reasons I joined the Labour Party as a teenager here in Dudley more than 35 years ago was to fight racism and I could never have believed I would be leaving the Labour party because of racism too."

Mr Austin, a minister for regional affairs under Gordon Brown and shadow minister under Ed Miliband, said he "agreed" with the eight MPs who left Labour earlier this week that things "have got to change".

However, he wants a Brexit deal concluded, rather than a further referendum on EU membership.

 

[drew]

yes, and they are liable to make up the short fall. does this make Brown's policy right?

Have they made up the entire shortfall and are they doing it willingly? Previously they have faced strikes when they have made changes to their scheme. Question is, would they have made those changes had they not taken a holiday in making contributions.

 

[Chicken Run]

Well?

 

[JCL666]

Interesting... not just because it is another MP deserting Corbyn's Labour, but because it exposes the weakness of the TIG position, being so anti-BrExit.

#splinters

Yeah they've made a bit of an error there (TIG I mean). They need to get a non ardent remainer on board fairly soon.

This from their website could be seen as support for leaving with a deal, but they don't have anyone espousing that.

In order to face the challenges and opportunities presented by globalisation, migration and technological advances, we believe the multilateral, international rules-based order must be strengthened and reformed. We believe in maintaining strong alliances with our closest European and international allies on trade, regulation, defence, security and counter-terrorism

 

[beorhthelm]

Have they made up the entire shortfall and are they doing it willingly? Previously they have faced strikes when they have made changes to their scheme. Question is, would they have made those changes had they not taken a holiday in making contributions.

companies are legally obliged to cover the pensions shortfalls. you'd have to go through companies and their pensions case by case to understand why they took payment holidays, often it was because they were in surplus, misguided as it may be. meanwhile, this doesn't address whether it was right or sensible for Browns policy which affect all pensions.

 

[Weststander]

companies are legally obliged to cover the pensions shortfalls. you'd have to go through companies and their pensions case by case to understand why they took payment holidays, often it was because they were in surplus, misguided as it may be. meanwhile, this doesn't address whether it was right or sensible for Browns policy which affect all pensions.

You’re spot on, again. Some companies took holidays as their (independently audited and actuarially audited) pension schemes were in surplus.

No one knew it at the time, but that was a huge mistake, as the acturial assessments were based on generous annuity/gilts returns at that time. Plus it was just before the stock markets decline/plateauing from 1999 onwards.

With hindsight I agree with [MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION], those large employers should not have been allowed to take contribution holidays.

With Brown’s inexcusable tax raid on every pension scheme going, it all added up to a perfect storm of a relative collapse in defined benefit pension fund values i.e. shortfalls, with awful defined contribution scheme provisions too.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You’re spot on, again. Some companies took holidays as their (independently audited and actuarially audited) pension schemes were in surplus.

No one knew it at the time, but that was a huge mistake, as the acturial assessments were based on generous annuity/gilts returns at that time. Plus it was just before the stock markets decline/plateauing from 1999 onwards.

With hindsight I agree with [MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION], those large employers should not have been allowed to take contribution holidays.

With Brown’s inexcusable tax raid on every pension scheme going, it all added up to a perfect storm of a relative collapse in defined benefit pension fund values i.e. shortfalls, with awful defined contribution scheme provisions too.

I am with the ESPS, which didn't take a holiday but did lower employee contributions from 5% to 3% for several years. Fortunately for me, the Electricity Supply industry is still very strong even now, so retirees like me, haven't suffered too much.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Well?

I give you the ever eloquent Mark Steel
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-islam-jewish-antisemitism-israel-labour-party-margaret-thatcher-a8494796.html

 

[Weststander]

I am with the ESPS, which didn't take a holiday but did lower employee contributions from 5% to 3% for several years. Fortunately for me, the Electricity Supply industry is still very strong even now, so retirees like me, haven't suffered too much.

Always good to hear a story like that. Not all large companies acted selfishly.

Do you/will you also get a pension from your time in the military (I think you’ve mentioned the services before?)?