[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[father_and_son]

No it really isn't rich at all and he explains why he says as much in that very clip. And isn't it a bit rich to call him out for doing so without bothering to listen to his reasoning?

The thing is, I'm no fan of GG but I don't see why he shouldn't be subject to the same even playing field as anyone else. He's railing against the notion that Labour are any more or less antisemitic than any other party. I have yet to see any real evidence that they are.

But saying the Tories are as antisemitic as Labour does not absolve them from wrong doing. This sort of "whataboutery" is prolific in modern politics and it's a childish response to any statement.

I'm neither saying Labour are bad nor am I saying Tories are good, but when Labour are accused of something the response of grown ups is ... "yes, we'll do something about it" or "no and here's the evidence why". "But they did it too!" is NOT a valid response. It is a response that people should have stopped using at age 5!!

 

[Simster]

But saying the Tories are as antisemitic as Labour does not absolve them from wrong doing. This sort of "whataboutery" is prolific in modern politics and it's a childish response to any statement.

I'm neither saying Labour are bad nor am I saying Tories are good, but when Labour are accused of something the response of grown ups is ... "yes, we'll do something about it" or "no and here's the evidence why". "But they did it too!" is NOT a valid response. It is a response that people should have stopped using at age 5!!

Fully agree, although GG was actively stating Labour don't have a problem at all. He's not the one engaging in whataboutery.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I do hope there's some kind of basic entry criteria for The Independent Group. Else it could end up as the new home if alm sorts of flouncing self-serving monsters with not an idealistic bone in their body.

 

[Titanic]

I do hope there's some kind of basic entry criteria for The Independent Group. Else it could end up as the new home if alm sorts of flouncing self-serving monsters with not an idealistic bone in their body.

Who knows? I'm sure they don't beyond stopping BrExit.

This BBC article suggests a few possible areas of 'tension':

"Last year, Luciana Berger, then a Labour MP, blamed austerity for having a "devastating cumulative impact" on her constituents and Chuka Umunna has said austerity "failed" and "disproportionately hit the poorest".

Anna Soubry - a minister in the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition government - has defended then Chancellor George Osborne's public spending cuts and welfare freeze."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47305860

 

[Triggaaar]

No it really isn't rich at all and he explains why he says as much in that very clip. And isn't it a bit rich to call him out for doing so without bothering to listen to his reasoning?

I'm not commenting on the content of what he's said, other than I think he's full of propaganda in general, and so for him to say others are like Goebbels seems rich to me.

 

[Giraffe]

Tony Blair led Governments may have made some very bad decisions but they also made some incredibly good decisions the one they should feel most pride in was the funding of the Health and Social welfare SureStart was a fantastic innovation and the NHS as a whole benifited, I worked in the NHS for 35 years that spanned the Thatcher, Major Blair, Brown Coalition years Cameron and May and I have to say the only time the NHS was funded correctly was during Tony Blairs Premiership at all other times before and after the NHS was forced to make savings year on year

And yet...

 

[Biscuit]

Tony Blair led Governments may have made some very bad decisions but they also made some incredibly good decisions the one they should feel most pride in was the funding of the Health and Social welfare SureStart was a fantastic innovation and the NHS as a whole benifited, I worked in the NHS for 35 years that spanned the Thatcher, Major Blair, Brown Coalition years Cameron and May and I have to say the only time the NHS was funded correctly was during Tony Blairs Premiership at all other times before and after the NHS was forced to make savings year on year

Completely agree. A fantastic PM. Made only one major mistake while in office for what - a decade? Not bad going.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I always had you down as considerably more intelligent than the sort of smug Tory that trots out Labour internal strife whilst his own party destroys the country. Did you click on the link? What he says is worthy of consideration. [MENTION=36]Titanic[/MENTION] didn't bother to quote his piffly fact things like:

In response to whether Goebellian was the right thing to say:
GG: Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes true
GG: I don't believe she is leaving because of antisemitism. I believe you want people to believe that, and the Goebels is you, and The Times.

GG: The Wavertree Labour party has a Jewish chair! Luciana Berger was 3 times elected as a Labour MP in Liverpool Wavertree! That doesn't sound like antisemitism to me.


In all honesty, do you believe the Labour party is any more antisemitic than any other mainstream party? Good on him for using Goebels I say.

Speaking of intelligence .. most comparisons to the Nazis in online 'debates' is usually lazy, ill informed bollox ... when used around the subject of anti semitism it's ****ing shameful. You can do better than this.

 

[drew]

And yet...

What exactly are you trying to show with that one graph? Is it that you are a tory so are just trying to justify they are spending on the NHS? Maybe it would be better to look at what exactly is needed to fund the NHS and look at what percentage of our GDP we spend on healthcare compared to other leading economic countries!

 

[Biscuit]

I agree, Blair over leveraged PFI arrangements to benefit private businesses, their bosses and shareholders so that the taxpayer was given a right shoeing. The contracts agreed by the Govt were tantamount to free money, and we can see the effects of that policy coming home to roost with the collapse of Carillion and other outsourcers on the brink.

He wasn’t even “left” the war mongering Tory shithouse.

There's so much wrong with so much of this that I'm not sure where to even start.

 

[mikeyjh]

But saying the Tories are as antisemitic as Labour does not absolve them from wrong doing. This sort of "whataboutery" is prolific in modern politics and it's a childish response to any statement.

I'm neither saying Labour are bad nor am I saying Tories are good, but when Labour are accused of something the response of grown ups is ... "yes, we'll do something about it" or "no and here's the evidence why". "But they did it too!" is NOT a valid response. It is a response that people should have stopped using at age 5!!

It's not an unfair point, yet Jews within and around the Labour party are making exactly that point - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ty-crucial-ally-in-fight-against-antisemitism - The hysteria whipped up around the ant-semitism within the Labour party is wholly out or proportion and this is an entirely valid argument. It's also not correct to conflate anti Israeli thinking with anti-semitism which many have been only so keen to do - I will keep pointing that out.

 

[Simster]

Speaking of intelligence .. most comparisons to the Nazis in online 'debates' is usually lazy, ill informed bollox ... when used around the subject of anti semitism it's ****ing shameful. You can do better than this.

If that is true, then what you're saying is that Jewish people are exempt from being compared to the worst proponents in history, purely because they're Jewish. Why should anyone cower away - Galloway here, but it was Livingston in the recent past - from presenting what they see as an uncomfortable truth? Are we going to give socially repugnant communists and homosexuals a free pass too?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If what you say is true, then what you're saying is that Jewish people are exempt from being compared from the worst proponents in history, purely because they're Jewish. Why should anyone cower away from presenting what they see as an uncomfortable truth? Are we going to give socially repugnant communm ists and homosexuals a free pass too?

Stop digging. GG brought up the Nazi comparison comparing 21st century UK news coverage about anti Semitism with Nazi Germany propaganda. If you really believe the two are comparable or it's an acceptable reference you are beyond hope.

 

[Two Professors]

If that is true, then what you're saying is that Jewish people are exempt from being compared to the worst proponents in history, purely because they're Jewish. Why should anyone cower away - Galloway here, but it was Livingston in the recent past - from presenting what they see as an uncomfortable truth? Are we going to give socially repugnant communists and homosexuals a free pass too?

So you think it's perfectly ok for Momentum bigots to constantly harass and abuse Rachel Riley because she's Jewish?

 

[Simster]

Stop digging. GG brought up the Nazi comparison comparing 21st century UK news coverage about anti Semitism with Nazi Germany propaganda. If you really believe the two are comparable or it's an acceptable reference you are beyond hope.

I've made my position clear - if he truly believes that Labour are victims of a propaganda campaign designed to paint them as antisemitic and backs this up with fact to show that they're not, I really don't see the issue. All this "you're beyond hope" nonsense doesn't fool me. I've seen the way you behave on the Brexit thread, you give as good as you get and I respect you for it, so please - don't pretend you're ever so sensitive just because the argument suits you to be so, you have a thick skin when required.

So you think it's perfectly ok for Momentum bigots to constantly harass and abuse Rachel Riley because she's Jewish?

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what I've said. When are ever going to use your brain?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I've made my position clear - if he truly believes that Labour are victims of a propaganda campaign designed to paint them as antisemitic and backs this up with fact to show that they're not, I really don't see the issue. All this "you're beyond hope" nonsense doesn't fool me. I've seen the way you behave on the Brexit thread, you give as good as you get and I respect you for it, so please - don't pretend you're ever so sensitive just because the argument suits you to be so, you have a thick skin when required.

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what I've said. When are ever going to use your brain?

If you can't see referencing the Nazis is a tad inappropriate when trying to deflect about the very real issue of anti-Semitism in the Labour party then yes beyond hope is accurate. Not so much sensitive as having a sense of decency/proportion.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

It isn't.

Blair increased "per pupil" funding by 55%. He put in place plans for a 7% annual increase of NHS spending every year, from 1998-2008. That's staggering. He wasn't considered 'hard left' by any stretch.

I know... That’s what I was getting at when I said it was a sad state of affairs.

 

[LlcoolJ]

There's so much wrong with so much of this that I'm not sure where to even start.

Standard.

 

[drew]

I've made my position clear - if he truly believes that Labour are victims of a propaganda campaign designed to paint them as antisemitic and backs this up with fact to show that they're not, I really don't see the issue. All this "you're beyond hope" nonsense doesn't fool me. I've seen the way you behave on the Brexit thread, you give as good as you get and I respect you for it, so please - don't pretend you're ever so sensitive just because the argument suits you to be so, you have a thick skin when required.

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what I've said. When are ever going to use your brain?

Let me get this clear, you think it's ok to bully someone just because they're Jewish. So I assume you think it is ok to do the same to someone because they are black, homosexual, Pakistani etc etc.

As for Galloway, just because he is entitled to open his mouth and exercise freedom of speech doesn't mean he is right. Tom Watson readily admits that Luciana was bullied and went as far as saying that the Wavertree Labour party should be suspended! Galloway has his agenda from which he rarely wavers.

 

[Bold Seagull]

So you think it's perfectly ok for Momentum bigots to constantly harass and abuse Rachel Riley because she's Jewish?

I don't think it's clear whether they were Labour Party or Momentum members. Has that been confirmed?