Insel affe
HellBilly
sorry double post
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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
Insel affe
HellBilly
Surprise, Surprise everyone…
let’s call this for what it is, Genocide, an unacceptable offer that will be rejected and is unworkable. This is ultimately a land grab and engineered removal of Palestinian people from Gaza.
“A multi-national force would take charge of rebuilding the territory after the widespread destruction caused by Israeli bombing” - who exactly is expected to pay for the reconstruction? I bet it’s not Isreal
“Some far right-wing members of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government have said that Palestinian citizens should be encouraged to leave Gaza for exile, with the reestablishment of Jewish settlements in the territory - controversial proposals that have been rejected as "extremist" and "unworkable" by other countries in the region and by some of Israel's allies”
“While Mr Galant's proposals may be regarded as more practical than those suggested by some of his cabinet colleagues, they are likely to be rejected by Palestinian leaders who say that Gazans themselves must be allowed to take full control of running the territory once this devastating war is over”
“Mr Netanyahu has not publicly talked in any detail about how he thinks Gaza should be governed” - probably because he wants full control either by proxy or displacement.
Israel outlines its plans for Gaza after war https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67888794
let’s call this for what it is, Genocide, an unacceptable offer that will be rejected and is unworkable. This is ultimately a land grab and engineered removal of Palestinian people from Gaza.
“A multi-national force would take charge of rebuilding the territory after the widespread destruction caused by Israeli bombing” - who exactly is expected to pay for the reconstruction? I bet it’s not Isreal
“Some far right-wing members of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government have said that Palestinian citizens should be encouraged to leave Gaza for exile, with the reestablishment of Jewish settlements in the territory - controversial proposals that have been rejected as "extremist" and "unworkable" by other countries in the region and by some of Israel's allies”
“While Mr Galant's proposals may be regarded as more practical than those suggested by some of his cabinet colleagues, they are likely to be rejected by Palestinian leaders who say that Gazans themselves must be allowed to take full control of running the territory once this devastating war is over”
“Mr Netanyahu has not publicly talked in any detail about how he thinks Gaza should be governed” - probably because he wants full control either by proxy or displacement.
Israel outlines its plans for Gaza after war https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67888794
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armchairclubber
Well-known member
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Yes, and apologies for the long post in responding but your excellent points deserve more than just ‘likes’ or ‘soundbite’ responses.
It is becoming more blatant that this was always the agenda with Netanyahu’s Likud Party - as I said in a previous post, the Massacre just gave the Religious Zionists the chutzpah to overtly pursue it. The UK and US have absolutely known about this for years. I posted months ago that the Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Netananyahu, the Likud Party, (and later Trump) to name a few protagonists in the Palestinian question have been very open about their plan for a Greater Israel since before 1990s - The last peace plan put forward by the US (Trump) awarded 30% of the Occupied West Bank to the Israelis and for the first time ever, had no commitment to a two stage solution but suggested an Israeli-run Palestinian administration (even less than is afforded now).
That is exactly why Gazans did not want to evacuate in the early days of the war (why Hamas refused to accept large scale deplacement of civillans from the North or to Egypt) - an evacuation with no right of return is an eviction.
As it is, 1.9 million Gazans are internally displaced now in Gaza and completely reliant on the UN refugee camps and ‘safe’ UN-protected havens that continue to be bombed in explicit violation of international law. According to Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, ”Israel is determined to carry out the forcible displacement of civilians in the Gaza Strip, beyond the bounds of international law. Even more concerning, the rights organisation said, is that Israel has granted itself permission to target and designate as “terrorists” those who defy its appalling evacuation order.”
Again as I highlighted several weeks ago, anyone charged with terrorism (which includes demonstrations, leafleting or anything that is seen to be ‘anti-Israel’ can be given the death penalty under proposed new laws.). As also previously mentioned - Under other new laws, foreign journalists can be now expelled and shut down in Israel by even printing stories that could be seen as ‘anti+Israel’ - in Gaza they are just shot.
It is fascism pure and simple - anyone who thinks that the Israeli Government is a westernised democratic one needs to think again. There have been ultra-nationalists influencing the development of the State of Israel since its creation and now they now have Israel in their grip in a way that threatens to destabilise the whole of the ME. (See article below)
The only hope is that the Israeli people vote out Netanyahu and elect the Labour opposition party ASAP - but that would mean trying getting rid of a Prime Minister desperate to hang onto power to avoid criminal convictions for corruption who is a master at manipulating popular opinion . Netanyahu and Trump are easy bedfellows.
Yes and no - Israel will pay for it if she gets to keep it basically - However, in the interests of finding a longterm peaceful settlement, there will need to be some kind of multi-national administration (including UN peacekeepers) - again as previously noted, it will need the complete compliance of Egypt/Jordanian/Saudi and Turkey etc but especially the Palestinian people if there is to be any hope of a lasting ceasefire. The rebuild as with all regions devastated by war will also need to be an international effort that will require contributions under a ‘Marshall-type’ plan. That won’t be without problems though as any major investment in Gaza by the West will be treated with suspicion by the ‘axis of resistance’ countries and seen as further proof of annexation/‘invasion’ of the traditional territories of Palestine.
Again the Religious Zionists and members of the Lukid Party have been saying this for years. You may (or may not!) remember an article I posted months ago that Netanyahu has stated he would not accept an international force but plans to keep an IDF presence there to prevent Hamas from carrying out resurgent activities (in contradiction to his oft stated justification for the death of thousands of innocent civilians and for no ceasefire until Hamas is destroyed/‘wiped off the face of the earth’ ) - it was widely reported in MSM at the time ..
This article is well worth at least a cursory glance which gives a simple background to the extremist elements of Israel governance
Einstein’s nightmare: the fascist politicians wielding power in Israel - Red Pepper
Likud’s corrupt, ultra-nationalist chauvinists are driving genocide in Gaza – as anticipated by 1940s Jews horrified by contemporary events in Israel, writes Andrew Feinstein
www.redpepper.org.uk
There needs to be an immediate arms embargo to Israel, divestment and sanctions - as was discussed above, the UN is one tiger that if you jump off it’s back is not going to bite you very hard in the a#rse with its vacuous resolutions and moral declarations.
I don’t know what will happen now, I fear we have reached a tipping point in East West relations - I do know only that the Israel government seems intent on radicalising the whole of the Muslim world with blatant genocidal policies against the Palestine people just to prove a self-fulling prophecy that Israel is hated by her Arab neighbours..
Is it any wonder?
Israel intensifies its forced displacement campaign in Gaza, targets shelter centres housing refugees [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory
News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 3 Jan 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor
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That's so concerning. When is the next Israeli presidential election? It seems that voting out Bibi is the only thing that will stop all this.Yes, and apologies for the long post in responding but your excellent points deserve more than just ‘likes’ or ‘soundbite’ responses.
It is becoming more blatant that this was always the agenda with Netanyahu’s Likud Party - as I said in a previous post, the Massacre just gave the Religious Zionists the chutzpah to overtly pursue it. The UK and US have absolutely known about this for years. I posted months ago that the Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Netananyahu, the Likud Party, (and later Trump) to name a few protagonists in the Palestinian question have been very open about their plan for a Greater Israel since before 1990s - The last peace plan put forward by the US (Trump) awarded 30% of the Occupied West Bank to the Israelis and for the first time ever, had no commitment to a two stage solution but suggested an Israeli-run Palestinian administration (even less than is afforded now).
That is exactly why Gazans did not want to evacuate in the early days of the war (why Hamas refused to accept large scale deplacement of civillans from the North or to Egypt) - an evacuation with no right of return is an eviction.
As it is, 1.9 million Gazans are internally displaced now in Gaza and completely reliant on the UN refugee camps and ‘safe’ UN-protected havens that continue to be bombed in explicit violation of international law. According to Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, ”Israel is determined to carry out the forcible displacement of civilians in the Gaza Strip, beyond the bounds of international law. Even more concerning, the rights organisation said, is that Israel has granted itself permission to target and designate as “terrorists” those who defy its appalling evacuation order.”
Again as I highlighted several weeks ago, anyone charged with terrorism (which includes demonstrations, leafleting or anything that is seen to be ‘anti-Israel’ can be given the death penalty under proposed new laws.). As also previously mentioned - Under other new laws, foreign journalists can be now expelled and shut down in Israel by even printing stories that could be seen as ‘anti+Israel’ - in Gaza they are just shot.
It is fascism pure and simple - anyone who thinks that the Israeli Government is a westernised democratic one needs to think again. There have been ultra-nationalists influencing the development of the Stare of Israel since its creation and now they now have Israel in their grip in a way that threatens to destabilise the whole of the ME. (See article below)
The only hope is that the Israeli people vote out Netanyahu and elect the Labour opposition party ASAP - but that would mean trying getting rid of a Prime Minister desperate to hang onto power to avoid criminal convictions for corruption who is a master at manipulating popular opinion . Netanyahu and Trump are easy bedfellows.
Yes and no - Israel will pay for it if she gets to keep it basically - However, in the interests of finding a longterm peaceful settlement, there will need to be some kind of multi-national administration (including UN peacekeepers) - again as previously noted, it will need the complete compliance of Egypt/Jordanian/Saudi and Turkey etc but especially the Palestinian people if there is to be any hope of a lasting ceasefire. The rebuild as with all regions devastated by war will also need to be an international effort that will require contributions under a ‘Marshall-type’ plan. That won’t be without problems though as any major investment in Gaza by the West will be treated with suspicion by the ‘axis of resistance’ countries and seen as further proof of annexation/‘invasion’ of the traditional territories of Palestine.
Again the Religious Zionists and members of the Lukid Party have been saying this for years. You may (or may not!) remember an article I posted months ago that Netanyahu has stated he would not accept an international force but plans to keep an IDF presence there to prevent Hamas from carrying out resurgent activities (in contradiction to his oft stated justification for the death of thousands of innocent civilians and for no ceasefire until Hamas is destroyed/‘wiped off the face of the earth’ ) - it was widely reported in MSM at the time ..
This article is well worth at least a cursory glance which gives a simple background to the extremist elements of Israel governance
Einstein’s nightmare: the fascist politicians wielding power in Israel - Red Pepper
Likud’s corrupt, ultra-nationalist chauvinists are driving genocide in Gaza – as anticipated by 1940s Jews horrified by contemporary events in Israel, writes Andrew Feinstein
I don’t know what will happen now, I fear we have reached a tipping point in East West relations - I do know only that the Israel government seems intent on radicalising the whole of the Muslim world with blatant genocidal policies against the Palestine people just to prove a self-fulling prophecy that Israel is hated by her Arab neighbours..
Is it any wonder?
Israel intensifies its forced displacement campaign in Gaza, targets shelter centres housing refugees [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory
News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 3 Jan 2024 by Euro-Med Monitorreliefweb.int
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
There was a GE in November 2022 so it would have to be by a vote of no confidence by his own Party and snap election I think as the next elections aren’t due until 2026 - Netanyahu survived a vonc last May in response to his judicial reforms so that wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion - Support for Netanyahu has crashed however since the Massacre - partly because of his ‘security failure’ and more so as the war continues because of the failure to negotiate a release of the hostages - also a foreboding that he will continue with his deeply unpopular judicial reforms once the war is over . The majority of Israeli’s do not want him in power or any of the extremist Lukidites but there are moderate Lukids that could potentially topple him as could mass demonstrations and strikes ... Gantz is becoming by far the most likely contender in a power grab:
Deeper background may appeal to your political interests
After tumbling in polls, Netanyahu clings to power and aims to improve political standing during war
In the wake of Hamas' brutal Oct. 7 attack, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's days in office seemed numbered.
www.pbs.org
Benny Gantz eyes his moment to topple Israel’s Netanyahu
Former defense minister is emerging as most likely candidate to call time on leader’s long political career.
www.politico.eu
armchairclubber
Well-known member
@Harry Wilson's tackle kindly don't react to any more of my posts and put me on ignore. Hopefully a moderator can assist in this @Guinness Boy @hans kraay fan club
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
It would be easier if you just put Harry on ignore if his posts bother you so much (I’m sure he wouldn’t mind) rather than making a public OT appeal for the mods to control other people’s input on this thread because you don’t like the content. I don’t think you can select who does or doesn’t respond to your posts - it doesn’t work like that.
Try not to get sidelined - your contributions are very valid imo as are Harry’s (when you are both staying OT
)
I'm afraid that's not how this forum works. No user can force another user not to reply to their posts, nor force them to put you on ignore. A mod shouldn't, imo, enable such a request either (though I see that I do have the ability to force him to ignore you).
Instead, I'd suggest that you ignore any user whose posts you don't wish to see. If you don't know how to do that, I can force you to ignore him if you wish.
@Guinness Boy @hans kraay fan club FYI
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Not at all he's free to post, I have just requested politely that he doesn't react to my posts and that he puts me on ignore. I haven't put anyone on ignore on this site and don't really intend to. Harry is free to contribute and I hope my request can be respected whether with assistance or not.It would be easier if you just put Harry on ignore if his posts bother you so much (I’m sure he wouldn’t mind) rather than trying to use the mods to control other people’s input. I don’t think you can select who does or doesn’t respond to your posts - it doesn’t work like that.
Stay focussed on the topic and try not to be sidelined - your contributions are very valid imo.
Anything you choose to put on an open forum is open to a response from others. If you don’t want to see those responses, you can put other members on ignore. It’s either that, or don’t post in the first place if you can’t handle the reaction
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Ok I misunderstood - I thought you were wanting to control the responses to your posts by making them ‘invisible’ to another poster so they don’t respond to them
Seriously, I have received enough nasty reactions to my posts on this thread to want to put a number of people on ignore but for me that would be like trying to have a debate in facebook echo chamber where only your friends can engage with you. I’m only saying this as someone vested in the thread topic but no doubt you’ll end up getting a bit of a pile on now - just skip over it and carry on contributing.
Insel affe
HellBilly
Am i one of those folks
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Yep, just a polite request, not much I can do if its not respected, thanksOk I misunderstood - I thought you were wanting to control the responses to your posts by making them ‘invisible’ to another poster so they don’t respond to them
Seriously, I have received enough nasty reactions to my posts on this thread to want to put a number of people on ignore but for me that would be like trying to have a debate in facebook echo chamber where only your friends can engage with you. I’m only saying this as someone vested in the thread topic but no doubt you’ll end up getting a bit of a pile on now - just skip over it and carry on contributing.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
NoAm i one of those folks
thejackal
Throbbing Member
Just circling back to this point for a second.
You may pour scorn on her statement but I think it's vitally important that at least someone in Parliament has the courage to read this opinion into Hansard.
We have 650 members of Parliament. The vast majority of them are spineless, self-serving berks, imo.
I agree with her sentiment and her right to express it.
I regret that I have upset a poster on here with whom, I suspect, I am in 95% agreement on most issues.
I want to see a swift end to the genocide (as it has now become). I suspect that Starmer's stated aim to quietly press America into action is the best we can do, because without America's action Bibi will carry on until everyone is dead or till he is booted out by a general election.
It isn't that I want to pour scorn on anyone's position. Its that I have seen, over the decades, sincere and righteous people campaigning for just causes, and I have seen those campaigns fail. I remember going on a massive anti nuclear march in 1980 or 81, and I thought we had won the argument, but nothing changed. And I remember my pal's daughter absolutely aghast when Corbyn didn't win the last general election because in her echo chamber it was an absolute certainty he would win.
But I am not suggesting that people not campaign. What I'm saying is that campaigning, and feeling and seeing the widespread support for the campaign, can give a false impression that one is making a difference, winning hearts and minds, and paving the way for change. We are dealing with Bibi here. I may not have scorn for Sultana's statement but Bibi, were he to be made aware of it, certainly would. I appreciate that you consider that this is not the point, and that simply having a Hansard record of a person's view is enough. I don't. I want real change. And I don't know how this can be achieved.
So I am getting no comfort reading statements by different voices, condemning Israel. It is incredibly easy to make condemnatory statements and this is useless when all it does is give one a false impression one is making a difference. Albeit I would be more than delighted if it transpired that I am wrong, and all these small acts of condemnation are paving the way for change.
Lastly, I have been frustrated by the focus on who (which politician) is making condemnatory statements, and that has triggered my badly-received comments. I want to see an end to the genocide as much as anyone, and apologize for inadvertently upsetting anyone with my vituperation.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Hear Hear.
I hope we're not gonna have more Starmer related bollocks. At least someone had said they would refrain.
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thejackal
Throbbing Member
Yes that's fair enough although I think saying something is always better than saying nothing at all. 6 months ago the Palestinian cause had been mostly forgotten again. Even Norman Finkelstein, the world's #1 documenter of Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians, had all but given up on it.
I spent time in the 1980s and early 1990s organising against the apartheid regime in South Africa. That movement didn't end in failure although it should be noted that it was the entire world's opposition and mainly economic reasons that eventually saw that lot get the boot.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
I think SA is an excellent example of how globalisation of public opposition to a regime’s treatment of its civilian population can mobilise political change. I remember organising benefit gigs and other fundraising events, growing up in a family that refused to buy SA goods etc. I have no doubt that while popular condemnation and lone MPs standing up in Parliament may not directly change the internal organisation of foreign states, it can certainly send a message to those living under inhumane conditions or suffering from human rights abuses that they are not alone, that the world is watching - one of the first and foremost effective tactics of a bully is to isolate the victim - I believe that breaking through that isolation with public protest condemnation that victims can see on TV/social media etc can be instrumental in precipitating change and can undermine the credibility of leaders on the world stage. I also think the more global the public support, the more it helps to deradicalise the methods by which change can be achieved - ie boycott not bombs.
Divestment and boycott of goods only work though if the public is on board with why they are implemented and comply through their shopping choices - hence the value of debate and demonstration. The Boycott Movement was at the absolute heart of the Anti-Apartheid Movement SA for decades. I think though when it comes to Israel, we are a long way from a situation where the US or UK would apply official sanctions or formalise boycotts of Israeli goods - it is still proving problematic doing that against Russia let alone against a country that is regarded as our greatest ally in the ME - but also Palestinians need something a lot faster than for allowing months before Israel feels the pinch of any economic effects of boycotts and sanctions - an immediate arms embargo would be more effective (but just as unlikely) .
Boycotts and sanctions helped rid South Africa of apartheid – is Israel next in line?
The comparison rankles supporters of Israel but the growing Palestinian Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions movement draws on the struggle to isolate racist South Africa
www.theguardian.com