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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
It’s problematic on a number of levels and can be deliberately inflammatory but ‘Holocaust memory’ has been ’activated’ by both ‘sides; by Israeli military and far right leaders in response to the massacre by calling Hamas, ‘Nazi’s’ and 7/10 ‘the worst attack since the Holocaust‘. Thus ‘mandating a more disproportionate response to the attack’ by weaponising both historical grief and the immediate grief of Jewish people and magnifying the massacre by linking it to that of a much larger event in Jewish history.
Holocaust memory has also been flipped on its head and weaponised by ’enemies’ of Israel to delegitimise their actions in Gaza by suggesting that Israel/Jews have no right to inflict on others what they had done to them - thus using comparisons to the Holocaust as moral hogtie on Netanyahu’s actions in Gaza. There is a third use by more objective observers that simply see parallels in the genocidal character of both the Holocaust and what is happening in Gaza - and in the apartheid policies of the Occupiers. Using terms like ‘Holocaust’ helps them to articulate what is otherwise an unspeakable horror by comparing it to what has become synonymous with one of the darkest blots on human history.
Personally I think it better to avoid any comparisons with that part of history and instead be more direct in describing what is happening for what it is - we don’t need to use the Holocaust as an anology or Nazi progrom terminology to call out ‘apartheid’ or genocide wherever it occurs and by whom or to whom.
You may both find this an interesting précis
The Real Danger of Using Holocaust Analogies Right Now
Comparing the events of October 7 and the war on Gaza to the Holocaust risks justifying militarism at any scale.
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Because they are fighting a subterranean enemy- miles of deep fortified tunnelling exists under Gaza ( has done for decades and in part helped by the Israelis to build) - tunnelling that is largely out of reach of bomb strikes and out of sight of surveillance drones. Hamas are hiding out in this vast tunnel system - It’s a form of urban guerrilla warfare that is very high risk and will take months to clear those tunnels. Clearing the tunnels may demilitarise Gaza of Hamas but unless Israeli starts precision bomb attacks in Iraq, Qatar and Turkey, they won’t destroy the organisation.
What to expect from an Israel-Hamas tunnel war in Gaza
In-depth: Israel's war is expected to target the tunnel network in Gaza, but underground warfare is risky and slow, and Hamas will hold clear advantages.
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You have a narrative that exists only in your own mind. Nobody is not condemning the killings. Some of us have moved on to considering the solutions.
One poster thinks all it needs is for Starmer to call for a ceasefire and the conflict will be over.
I think the same poster suggests that all it needs to end is for the UN to condemn it, but the US will never sign that off so, once again, it is all Starmer's fault.
With this sort of analysis, I fear that Sunk will win the next general election, as the extreme left and right pile in to condemn Starmer.
I await someone suggesting that if we had PR in the UK all would be well in the middle east.
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It’s problematic on a number of levels and can be deliberately inflammatory but ‘Holocaust memory’ has been ’activated’ by both ‘sides; by Israeli military and far right leaders in response to the massacre by calling Hamas, ‘Nazi’s’ and 7/10 ‘the worst attack since the Holocaust‘. Thus ‘mandating a more disproportionate response to the attack’ by weaponising both historical grief and the immediate grief of Jewish people and magnifying the massacre by linking it to that of a much larger event in Jewish history.
Holocaust memory has also been flipped on its head and weaponised by ’enemies’ of Israel to delegitimise their actions in Gaza by suggesting that Israel/Jews have no right to inflict on others what they had done to them - thus using comparisons to the Holocaust as moral hogtie on Netanyahu’s actions in Gaza. There is a third use by more objective observers that simply see parallels in the genocidal character of both the Holocaust and what is happening in Gaza - and in the apartheid policies of the Occupiers. Using terms like ‘Holocaust’ helps them to articulate what is otherwise an unspeakable horror by comparing it to what has become synonymous with one of the darkest blots on human history.
Personally I think it better to avoid any comparisons with that part of history and instead be more direct in describing what is happening for what it is - we don’t need to use the Holocaust as a metaphor or Nazi progrom terminology to call out ‘apartheid’ or genocide wherever it occurs and by whom or to whom.
You may both find this an interesting précis
The Real Danger of Using Holocaust Analogies Right Now
Comparing the events of October 7 and the war on Gaza to the Holocaust risks justifying militarism at any scale.time.com
This article from last month, which touches on similar themes, is also worth a read https://www.theguardian.com/comment...h-arendt-prize-masha-gessen-israel-gaza-essay
But sadly just like the response of America's 'left' to the gun killing sprees in America, they will stop short of doing anything that would make any difference. Such as telling Bibi to stop 'or else'.Well, the man who will have the best intelligence in the world, and the leader of Israel's greatest ally, described it as "indiscriminate bombing".
Joe Biden: "But they're starting to lose that support by indiscriminate bombing that takes place,"
Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says
The US president issues his strongest criticism yet and refers to "indiscriminate bombing" in Gaza.www.bbc.co.uk
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 18,216
A couple of posters seem to pass up the opportunity for said condemnation ( I may have missed it of course).
There also seems to be a fair narrative criticising those who are calling for a ceasefire, although to be fair not so much on this thread. But enough for me to wonder if we are all on the same page.
Considering the solutions is of course the best course of action and I would expect nothing less from you Harry.
I get your point. Sadly I think the time for winning Israeli hearts and mind is long gone. Perhaps it is time they were made to understand that they will be judged by the same standards as others, and that the last nearly eighty years of cutting them some slack is over.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
This type of dialogue shows why comparisons with Nazi Germany are problematic - The Holocaust resulted from a Nazi ideology that targeted European Jews as a race (and other “impure” groups) - Holocaust memory therefore is rooted in the consciousness of Jewish self-identity. One can’t weaponise the Holocaust memory and just use it to beat Netanyahu over the head with it, it is a weapon of mass destruction that targets all Jews.
There is also no evidence to suggest either that Israel has received latitude for the past 80 years arising from some guilt-ridden international stage. Israel has repeatedly fallen foul of International laws on human rights and genocide but ignores with impunity all the UN resolutions declared. The International Criminal Court could try and enforce international law but without its own police force, it relies on other states to do that. Israel has got away with years of criminal activity not because of post-Holocaust timidity on the part of others but because 2 of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council are Israel’s strongest geopolitical and military allies - and when it comes to being a part of an international rules based order, the UN is a toothless tiger.
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armchairclubber
Well-known member
Some might say rather like our own 'left', don't you think?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,023
we went into former Yugoslavia, UN peacekeepers in many African countries to keep warring peoples apart. Israel is definately treated differently, of course its latent guilt trip. maybe Holocaust is not the right word to use, genocide or ethinic clensing will do.
nicko31
Well-known member
All this is starting to have global implications with International shipping diverted, this has the potential to be inflationary.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
I’m confused 🫤 Can you be more specific please? - I’m not sure I understand how what you’ve said relates to ‘guilt’? Or how the UN peacekeepers prove Israel has got away with breaching international laws the past 80 years? (which was the suggestion I was responding to). There are 12 UN peacekeeping missions currently with the blue line separating Israel from Lebanon and Syria - Kosovo and Africa that you mention, Cyprus and Kashmir.
If the UN peacekeeping forces are there, it’s because the places they in operate in are flashpoints for conflict - having UN forces there helps to monitor ceasefires, deescalate/create buffer forces so I’m not sure where the ‘latent guilt‘ part comes into it?
Where we operate
How to use the map: To select a mission, click on the pin/marker on the map; you will see a slide of the mission at the right side of the map, which has a link (“Go to the mission fact sheet”) directing you to the mission fact sheet. To view each mission fact sheet in the big circle with the...
EDIT - OK thinking through what you might mean a bit further: I think you are saying Israel is being treated ‘differently’ because unlike African countries or ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, the U.N. hasn’t sent peace keeping troops into Gaza to help the Palestinians so this ‘looks like favouritism’ toward Israel - if that is what you are getting at:
Firstly, the UN peace keeping groups are not an active fighting force ( not like an army) they don’t go into active war zones and take sides - they go in after the conflict has reached a ceasefire to maintain the peace. Secondly, they don’t go into any country where they are not invited - the U.N. has no peacekeeping troops in Israel but they do operate in the buffer zones along Israel’s border.
Having said that, once a permanent ceasefire is reached in Gaza, then it is likely some interim UN peacekeeping force will be deployed in Gaza to prevent a military occupation by Israel.
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Our 'left' has no traction with Israel. And it is not in favour of personal gun ownership. As similar to America's left as football is to 'American football'.
I'm not posting Starmer's statement a third time. Tiny nations lining up screaming at Israel to stop is nothing more than gesture politics. Only the UN or the US can tell Israel to stop. But the US has vetoed any attempt by the UN to tell Israel to stop. What do you suggest Starmer do? "When I become prime minister I will take the UK out of the UN, and lead a boycott of American goods, money and influence in the UK, unless they tell Israel to stop".
And if Israel are told to stop, do you think they will? I don't.
If your comment was directed at the actual left (Momentum and chums), well they want to throw Israel into the sea. Fill your boots. My former union has been boycotting Israel for thre last 3 years, and boy are they pleased with themselves. Bollocks to our pay and conditions, we boycott Israel. And what does this boycott look like? The answer is nothing. If I want to go to Israel to give lecture I can't be stopped and my (former) union won't even know unless I tell them. Then what? Nothing.
Politics is the art of the possible. Starmer can do nothing more than privately urge America to think again. Meanwhile Sunk has made it clear that America can do what it likes. Neither stance matters, and people attempting to Weaponize Starmer's failure to 'condemn' Israel is.....a tory or an irritable mad left winger, or and irrelevant liberal.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
and people attempting to Weaponize Starmer's failure to 'condemn' Israel is.....a tory or an irritable mad left winger, or and irrelevant liberal.
I could pull you up on many elements of your reply. You do tend to go off on a tangent.
However I'll just pull you up on that in bold if I may.
To slander anyone with your insults who has the opinion that Starmer(a Zionist) should be condemning the Israel State (Zionists) in carrying out a Genocide is insulting in itself.
Slander, is it?
Crikey.
People are trying to weaponize Starmer's failure to 'condemn' Israel. Who do you imagine these people might be? What's their game?
And, yeah, thanks for ignoring the entire rest of my argument. I want to see a swift end to the conflict and am saddened that I won't.
Arguing the toss about Starmer in this context is pathetic. You will see I haven't criticized Sunk in this context even those I loath him. In this context it is pathetic to use a failure to lead a Stop Israel campaign as a stick to beat a UK political leader. That's my point.
Bashing Starmer is this sort of petty-fogging nit picking that will get the 'ceasefire now!' movement nowhere. You need allies. Weaponizing Starmer's stance against Starmer is not going to encourage me to stand outside the US embassy waving a Palestinian flag.
We have had a lot of sensible discussion on this thread. It's a pity that people want to hijack it to promote their pro- or anti labour/tory bias.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Slander, is it?
Crikey.
People are trying to weaponize Starmer's failure to 'condemn' Israel. Who do you imagine these people might be? What's their game?
And, yeah, thanks for ignoring the entire rest of my argument. I want to see a swift end to the conflict and am saddened that I won't.
Arguing the toss about Starmer in this context is pathetic. You will see I haven't criticized Sunk in this context even those I loath him. In this context it is pathetic to use a failure to lead a Stop Israel campaign as a stick to beat a UK political leader. That's my point.
Bashing Starmer is this sort of petty-fogging nit picking that will get the 'ceasefire now!' movement nowhere. You need allies. Weaponizing Starmer's stance against Starmer is not going to encourage me to stand outside the US embassy waving a Palestinian flag.
We have had a lot of sensible discussion on this thread. It's a pity that people want to hijack it to promote their pro- or anti labour/tory bias.
This is very much the category I see you in I'm afraid. This is not a Starmer campaign thread, indeed I have found that inappropriate.
There is another one or more for that
I was responding to posts on this thread. I didn't start it.
But I'm happy to leave it there. (Edit: at least until it is revived again).
Apologies if I have derailed the thread.
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armchairclubber
Well-known member
Repost. I support this humanitarian strategy with Zara Sultana.
If you get that upset by the word 'mad' I'd sit down and have a nice cup of tea if I were you. NSC might not be the place you want to frequent. Unless it's 'Tory' that you think is an insult?
As for slander I think you've just slandered Starmer there. Let's not do that again please.
Apologies for popping back on to the thread, but I've just read the most frivolous post report ever in the history of the board and it's pissed me off.