[News] Middle East conflict

[nicko31]

More evidence of the Israeli government's real plan :

"Israel's far-right finance minister Bezalel Smotrich called for Palestinians to leave Gaza and make way for Israelis who could "make the desert bloom"."

From the BBC - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67855117

Wonder what percentance of the Israeli popluation would be in favour? Sadly, I think it would be quite high.

 

[armchairclubber]

Wonder what percentance of the Israeli popluation would be in favour? Sadly, I think it would be quite high.

It's really abhorrent that Netenyahu support continues to absolutely plummet and yet Israelis want him to remain in post until completion of his war before an election.
A convenient line for posters like @aolstudios too?

Israel-Hamas war: PM Netanyahu’s popularity plummets further, say new polls

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's popularity continues to wane amid the escalation in the war against Hamas and the increasing death toll on both sides. In a poll carried out by Israel Democracy Institute in mid-December, it was reported that nearly 66 per cent of Israelis thought...

www.wionews.com

 

[carlzeiss]

Wonder what percentance of the Israeli popluation would be in favour? Sadly, I think it would be quite high.

Relocating Gazza residents to Europe has been touted as a possible solution recently .

https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-lawmakers-call-on-european-countries-to-take-in-gaza-refugees/

 

[Guinness Boy]

What are you accusing me of? Working for a terrorist organisation? And yes, of course it is an ad hominem attack to falsely accuse someone on NSC of supporting some Machiavellian ’entity’ in order to silence the views of someone you disagree with- there is no ‘entity’ and you know it.

And by the way your comments have ONLY been liked by the same posters that have posted strong pro-Israel positions, ignored moderate debate, ignored facts, accused others of anti-semitism, posted Islamophobic sentiments and trolled the thread through a number of means and made repeated personal attacks on others to the point being threatened with bans— nice company you keep.

You are very much in a minority, not just in the UK but in the World, in giving your completely unbridled support to how Israel is conducting its war on Hamas - even the US, Israel’s greatest ally, has been working for weeks behind the scenes to put pressure on Israel to make more effort to avoid civilian casualties:

Blinken steps up call for Israel to spare civilians in strongest remarks yet - BBC News

The top diplomat delivers the strongest US remarks yet in Israel on protecting Palestinian civilians.

www.bbc.com

Sorry @Bozza and mods if this besmirches your edict for the thread. But this guy does not post on this thread in the manner of a normal poster on this site. This is something else. Half a dozen links and a thousand word treatise every time he posts? I mean, really? We're clearly being steered in a particular direction by a particular entity. Please feel free to ban me from this thread for pointing out what should be blatantly manipulative red flags. And, to clarify, this is not an 'ad hominem' attack - to use his favourite phrase - on the poster in question, it's an attack on the entity he is posting on behalf of

You're far from alone in this observation, @Tom Hark Preston Park

OK, thanks to a few post reports I'm going to stick this on the thread rather than PM, which I'd normally prefer.

Firstly it's very important that all sides of the debate are addressed on the thread and I do mean 'all' and not 'both'. It's perfectly possible to be a Jew or non Jew who doesn't agree with the current Israeli government without being either Hamas or anti-semitic. If you want some good examples of this Robert Peston's X timeline is a good place to start. But, of course, there will be people who only see the Palestinian side and others who only see the Israeli government's view. Those views, however unpalatable you find them personally, need room to breathe on this thread too.

Secondly, accusing any poster on here, however subtly, of being terrorist sympathisers is outrageous and it stops now. You won't get a thread ban, you'll get a site ban if I see a repeat.

Thirdly though, @Zeberdi by 'room to breathe' I mean that the thread should not be dominated by any one person. This is why the majority of the board fell out of love with Swansman. He had to reminded of what I will say to you all - this is NSC - no one wins the internet. You make good arguments and back it up with sources but not everyone has the time on their hands that you do. Ultimately this is a football message board that people mostly drop in and out of. Sometimes less is more.

Thanks.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There are victims. Tragically, whenever there is a war. They are collateral damage - not part of one side or the other.

Just victims. Nothing more, nothing less. Not good guys, not bad guys. Just collateral damage, that's all. Do you seriously think that WWII was not a case of good version Nazi evil? Innocent Brits, including babies and children, were killed. So were German babies and children. All victims. Just victims. Nothing more. It's called war - those responsible for it are guilty.

There is no 'good side' in Gaza (unlike, say, in Ukraine). Just two lots of bad guys, intent on murder if they think it will further their cause.

I am not sure who you see as good and who is evil here, or indeed whether it matters.

And I really think you and @Zeberdi need to stop arguing over semantics.

I would add that I have seen @Zeberdi repeatedly criticised on this thread and I am at a loss to understand why. All he has done is try to explain with nuance various aspects of this situation that some others have condensed into superficial sound bites:

Such as 'it is all Israel's fault because of 48'
or 'Hamas started it so they deserve all they get'
or 'Its all Starmer's fault for not instantly condemning Israel and demanding a ceasefire'
or 'there are no good guys here' so f*** 'em all.

It is clear that nothing will resolve here until America decides to tell Israel to stop. And it never will. I said at the beginning that Israel needed to be the 'bigger man' and not retaliate when Hamas lost their mind and launched the attack. That they didn't is understandable however, and perhaps no action may have encouraged the lunatics in Lebanon and elsewhere to attempt to fulfil their heartfelt desire to drive the Jews into the sea. But after a week of retaliatory genocide it all got out of hand.

It isan't about good and bad guys. But a lack of a clear righteous side in the conflict seems to make it easier for people to shrug their shoulders and say "they deserve each other. f*** 'em". That we ordinary citizens can do nothing (and indeed neither can our British leaders - we are a feeble and irrelevant nation now) adds to the sense of detachment. But there very certainly are good people on both sides, and neither have any traction now that the lunatics hold sway.

In the long term. Starmer is right. Both sides must sit down and negotiate a peace. The only alternative is for Hamas to rearm, rinse and repeat, or for the Israelis to do to the Palestinians what the Germans tried to do to the Jews.

But back to the main reason for my post. You do realise I hope that @Zeberdi has heritage on one side of this conflict, and yet he has never posted 'my people right or wrong' stuff on this thread. That gives him a degree of authority to his insights that most of the rest of us don't have. So petty nitpicking at his posts doesn't sit well with me.

 

[GT49er]

I am not sure who you see as good and who is evil here, or indeed whether it matters.

And I really think you and @Zeberdi need to stop arguing over semantics.

I would add that I have seen @Zeberdi repeatedly criticised on this thread and I am at a loss to understand why. All he has done is try to explain with nuance various aspects of this situation that some others have condensed into superficial sound bites:

Such as 'it is all Israel's fault because of 48'
or 'Hamas started it so they deserve all they get'
or 'Its all Starmer's fault for not instantly condemning Israel and demanding a ceasefire'
or 'there are no good guys here' so f*** 'em all.

It is clear that nothing will resolve here until America decides to tell Israel to stop. And it never will. I said at the beginning that Israel needed to be the 'bigger man' and not retaliate when Hamas lost their mind and launched the attack. That they didn't is understandable however, and perhaps no action may have encouraged the lunatics in Lebanon and elsewhere to attempt to fulfil their heartfelt desire to drive the Jews into the sea. But after a week of retaliatory genocide it all got out of hand.

It isan't about good and bad guys. But a lack of a clear righteous side in the conflict seems to make it easier for people to shrug their shoulders and say "they deserve each other. f*** 'em". That we ordinary citizens can do nothing (and indeed neither can our British leaders - we are a feeble and irrelevant nation now) adds to the sense of detachment. But there very certainly are good people on both sides, and neither have any traction now that the lunatics hold sway.

In the long term. Starmer is right. Both sides must sit down and negotiate a peace. The only alternative is for Hamas to rearm, rinse and repeat, or for the Israelis to do to the Palestinians what the Germans tried to do to the Jews.

But back to the main reason for my post. You do realise I hope that @Zeberdi has heritage on one side of this conflict, and yet he has never posted 'my people right or wrong' stuff on this thread. That gives him a degree of authority to his insights that most of the rest of us don't have. So petty nitpicking at his posts doesn't sit well with me.

No semantics, no nit-picking, just that this conflict isn't a case of good versus evil - Israel and Hamas are both culpable.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No semantics, no nit-picking, just that this conflict isn't a case of good versus evil - Israel and Hamas are both culpable.

I think most of us understand that. It wasn't the impression you were giving, however. Your 'not having that' signaled a major disagreement that was hard for me to fathom.

I have just noticed a couple of other people 'discussing' in a rather pejorative way the 'long' posts made by @Zeberdi, and a moderator's response.

Well, I see no problem with long posts. If (as is reasonable) other posters have a strong bias against Israel or Hamas then there are better ways of expressing this than bullying @Zeberdi for his studied neutrality. Comparing him to Swansman, also, is rather insulting. I don't see that Zeberdi is attempting to sell conspiracy theories and campaign against Covid vaccination.

And when it comes to long posts, remember, we all have the TL : DR function at our disposal, and if it all gets too much, there is the ignore function.

 

[armchairclubber]

I am not sure who you see as good and who is evil here, or indeed whether it matters.

And I really think you and @Zeberdi need to stop arguing over semantics.

I would add that I have seen @Zeberdi repeatedly criticised on this thread and I am at a loss to understand why. All he has done is try to explain with nuance various aspects of this situation that some others have condensed into superficial sound bites:

Such as 'it is all Israel's fault because of 48'
or 'Hamas started it so they deserve all they get'
or 'Its all Starmer's fault for not instantly condemning Israel and demanding a ceasefire'
or 'there are no good guys here' so f*** 'em all.

It is clear that nothing will resolve here until America decides to tell Israel to stop. And it never will. I said at the beginning that Israel needed to be the 'bigger man' and not retaliate when Hamas lost their mind and launched the attack. That they didn't is understandable however, and perhaps no action may have encouraged the lunatics in Lebanon and elsewhere to attempt to fulfil their heartfelt desire to drive the Jews into the sea. But after a week of retaliatory genocide it all got out of hand.

It isan't about good and bad guys. But a lack of a clear righteous side in the conflict seems to make it easier for people to shrug their shoulders and say "they deserve each other. f*** 'em". That we ordinary citizens can do nothing (and indeed neither can our British leaders - we are a feeble and irrelevant nation now) adds to the sense of detachment. But there very certainly are good people on both sides, and neither have any traction now that the lunatics hold sway.

In the long term. Starmer is right. Both sides must sit down and negotiate a peace. The only alternative is for Hamas to rearm, rinse and repeat, or for the Israelis to do to the Palestinians what the Germans tried to do to the Jews.

But back to the main reason for my post. You do realise I hope that @Zeberdi has heritage on one side of this conflict, and yet he has never posted 'my people right or wrong' stuff on this thread. That gives him a degree of authority to his insights that most of the rest of us don't have. So petty nitpicking at his posts doesn't sit well with me.

I'll have to pick you up on that one Harry 'Its all Starmer's fault for not instantly condemning Israel and demanding a ceasefire'

I not sure anyone here has said that. He may come across to some as a lapdog who offers very little on this any different to the Tories or American / Biden policy but that's a bit strong and there certainly appears more of a concencus across both front benches of our own parliament.

The United Kingdom also supports Israel and profits from this conflict in continuing to sell arms. Not insignificant in my opinion, but something that should be campaigned against however small in pressure to bring about a ceasefire and opportunity for peace immediately and before Gaza and its "residents" are totally wiped out. Our policies make us complicit in this.

The UK currently stands alongside America and Israel in this conflict, which is pretty much the line Penny Mordant takes in her "Stand up and Fight" speech (I'm sure you'd like to watch & listen to it again because Labour front bench are right behind her imo) Ironically it is for freedom.





So there you have it. A nation standing together behind the Tories and America and Israel. Just don't anyone dare step out of line.

 

[Bozza]

It's been very notable that throughout this thread those who support Israel's actions mostly haven't really brought much in constructive arguments.
We've had people trying to have the thread shut down, constant trolling by emojis and now persistent personal attacks. I know the world is a bit dumbed down now but seriously criticising someone who backs up their arguments as being a red flag is unreal.

Agreed.

I haven't posted on this thread for many weeks because I got fed up of the personal attacks, conducted...

- via PM direct to me
- via people registering numerous new NSC accounts, day after day, with abusive usernames
- via the Argus comments section
- via creating rogue accounts on social media and targeting me with attempted phishing in order to obtain my contact details
- via a current standing Brighton & Hove councillor directly threatening me by way of "official" email

All of this coming from those of a pro-Israel persuasion who repeatedly accused me of being a Hamas-sympathiser and/or being anti-semitic because I questioned the indiscriminate killing of thousands of people conducted by the Israel state, and others were saying the same on a website I happen to own.

It's perfectly possible to have utter disdain for both Hamas and their actions as well as those responsible for the daily slaughter conducted in Gaza. it's perfectly possible to wish for peace for those living in Israel, Jews who reside elsewhere in the world and the innocent Palestinians who wish no ill on Israel and just want to get on with their lives free of oppression and fear.

 

[Zeberdi]

OK, thanks to a few post reports I'm going to stick this on the thread rather than PM, which I'd normally prefer.

Firstly it's very important that all sides of the debate are addressed on the thread and I do mean 'all' and not 'both'. It's perfectly possible to be a Jew or non Jew who doesn't agree with the current Israeli government without being either Hamas or anti-semitic. If you want some good examples of this Robert Peston's X timeline is a good place to start. But, of course, there will be people who only see the Palestinian side and others who only see the Israeli government's view. Those views, however unpalatable you find them personally, need room to breathe on this thread too.

Secondly, accusing any poster on here, however subtly, of being terrorist sympathisers is outrageous and it stops now. You won't get a thread ban, you'll get a site ban if I see a repeat.

Thirdly though, @Zeberdi by 'room to breathe' I mean that the thread should not be dominated by any one person. This is why the majority of the board fell out of love with Swansman. He had to reminded of what I will say to you all - this is NSC - no one wins the internet. You make good arguments and back it up with sources but not everyone has the time on their hands that you do. Ultimately this is a football message board that people mostly drop in and out of. Sometimes less is more.

Thanks.

I have come to respect you @Guinness Boy because I usually like where you are coming from on most of your topics, especially this one and on our Club/squad members too. But with regard to your intervention here, I hope you don’t mind me responding in public either since your post only named me personally rather than anyone else who needs moderating that has trolled this thread or me with personal attacks in recent months.

- I haven’t just been accused by several posters of working for terrorists but accused also at various times of being ‘twisted’, ‘sick’ ‘anti-Semitic’ ‘fake’, the ‘most disingenuous poster in NSC’, ‘desperate’, ‘hysterical’, ‘a Bully’ and ’peddling lies‘, ‘having multiple usernames’ all of which I have dealt with by not responding to others in the same way - that has been a lot of nastiness to deal with in a debate where some of the issues are already very painful - These assaults on my character and integrity have also been incredibly disingenuous given my very genuine interest in having good honest and constructive debate around these issues and knowing that these attacks are designed to shut down one aspect of the debate, vis a vis the atrocities being committed against innocent Palestinian civilians In Gaza.

In that spirit, imo, there are better ways to suggest that a Jewish member posts less (moderate and balanced) posts on a thread about an Israel-Hamas war who has constantly raised awareness of nuance to invite debate, without naming them as the sole person in public admonishment about trolling and comparing them to an antisemite of all people who dominated numerous long running threads throughout NSC for years with bizarre arguments at times not shared by anyone and who was subsequently banned permanently from the forum. You could have just done the right thing if this was about me personally posting too much and messaged me in private without making it look like I have deserved all the trolling and baiting these past months by a handful (3-4) of very pro- Israel/anti-Palestinian posters. (Far less than those who have actually welcomed my contributions btw.)


Sorry if many of the facts of what is happening in Gaza are unpalatable to pro-Israelis or the sympathy for Palestinian civilians is unpalatable to those who have expressed their Islamophobic POVs - but the issues around this conflict are very nuanced and complex - i have had no problem with anyone expressing pro- Israel or pro-Palestinian views but at least do so in as full possession of the facts as is possible in a war situation or at least recognise that ‘facts’ maybe used as propaganda and back up any comments with a range of sources when necessary or asked for otherwise it is reduced to a Twitterseque, TikTok two line echo chamber of unsubstantiated and polarised emotive comments.


I am sorry for getting dragged into the last exchange with @GT49er - months of trolling by a few people trying to polarise the debate and playing down the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is wearing thin so I doubled down unnecessarily- The points I made about not polarising the debate into 2 sides and reducing it to 2 protagonists was an important to make if we are to understand why peace talks and calls for ceasefire’s have failed for so many years and especially now.

No semantics, no nit-picking, just that this conflict isn't a case of good versus evil - Israel and Hamas are both culpable.

Anyway - glad to move on, stick to the facts and not enforce any opinions on others or stifle debate. I’ll post less but I would ask that moderators don’t ignore me in future if I report a poster for making ad hominem remarks or trolling me either - that’s letting bullies do your moderation for you if the aim is to get me to post less.
HNY

 

[WATFORD zero]

Agreed.

I haven't posted on this thread for many weeks because I got fed up of the personal attacks, conducted...

- via PM direct to me
- via people registering numerous new NSC accounts, day after day, with abusive usernames
- via the Argus comments section
- via creating rogue accounts on social media and targeting me with attempted phishing in order to obtain my contact details
- via a current standing Brighton & Hove councillor directly threatening me by way of "official" email

All of this coming from those of a pro-Israel persuasion who repeatedly accused me of being a Hamas-sympathiser and/or being anti-semitic because I questioned the indiscriminate killing of thousands of people conducted by the Israel state, and others were saying the same on a website I happen to own.

It's perfectly possible to have utter disdain for both Hamas and their actions as well as those responsible for the daily slaughter conducted in Gaza. it's perfectly possible to wish for peace for those living in Israel, Jews who reside elsewhere in the world and the innocent Palestinians who wish no ill on Israel and just want to get on with their lives free of oppression and fear.

That is absolutely disgusting and, I would have thought, verging on harassment/stalking/malicious communications, all of which are illegal. I'm absolutely sure the you have the full backing on 99.9% of NSC posters in the way you run and moderate this site and in any action you take.

You really do have to wonder about the sort of person/people who would do something like this

 

[Guinness Boy]

I have come to respect you @Guinness Boy because I usually like where you are coming from on most of your topics, especially this one and on our Club/squad members too. But with regard to your intervention here, I hope you don’t mind me responding in public either since your post only named me personally rather than anyone else who needs moderating that has trolled this thread or me with personal attacks in recent months.

- I haven’t just been accused by several posters of working for terrorists but accused also at various times of being ‘twisted’, ‘sick’ ‘anti-Semitic’ ‘fake’, the ‘most disingenuous poster in NSC’, ‘desperate’, ‘hysterical’, ‘a Bully’ and ’peddling lies‘, ‘having multiple usernames’ all of which I have dealt with by not responding to others in the same way - that has been a lot of nastiness to deal with in a debate where some of the issues are already very painful - These assaults on my character and integrity have also been incredibly disingenuous given my very genuine interest in having good honest and constructive debate around these issues and knowing that these attacks are designed to shut down one aspect of the debate, vis a vis the atrocities being committed against innocent Palestinian civilians In Gaza.

In that spirit, imo, there are better ways to suggest that a Jewish member posts less (moderate and balanced) posts on a thread about an Israel-Hamas war who has constantly raised awareness of nuance to invite debate, without naming them as the sole person in public admonishment about trolling and comparing them to an antisemite of all people who dominated numerous long running threads throughout NSC for years with bizarre arguments at times not shared by anyone and who was subsequently banned permanently from the forum. You could have just done the right thing if this was about me personally posting too much and messaged me in private without making it look like I have deserved all the trolling and baiting these past months by a handful (3-4) of very pro- Israel/anti-Palestinian posters. (Far less than those who have actually welcomed my contributions btw.)


Sorry if many of the facts of what is happening in Gaza are unpalatable to pro-Israelis or the sympathy for Palestinian civilians is unpalatable to those who have expressed their Islamophobic POVs - but the issues around this conflict are very nuanced and complex - i have had no problem with anyone expressing pro- Israel or pro-Palestinian views but at least do so in as full possession of the facts as is possible in a war situation or at least recognise that ‘facts’ maybe used as propaganda and back up any
comments with a range of sources when necessary or asked for otherwise it is reduced to a Twitterseque, TikTok two line echo chamber of unsubstantiated and polarised emotive comments.


I am sorry for getting dragged into the last exchange with @GT49er - months of trolling by a few people trying to polarise the debate and playing down the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is wearing thin so I doubled down unnecessarily- The points I made about not polarising the debate into 2 sides and reducing it to 2 protagonists was an important to make if we are to understand why peace talks and calls for ceasefire’s have failed for so many years and especially now.


As for the GT49 post you gave a like to, I’m not sure what you think I was saying that contradicts that - I have held that line for my entire life - so yes, it is nit picking to some extent by both of us but me saying Israel and Hamas were not the only protagonists in a very complex conflict that it is much more complex and nuanced is a very significant point if we are to understand why the situation is as it is - it doesn’t contradict or limit their joint culpability though, it just makes it more challenging to deal with..

Anyway - glad to move on, stick to the facts and not enforce any opinions on others or stifle debate. I’ll post less but I would ask that moderators don’t ignore me in future if I report a poster for making ad hominem remarks or trolling me either - that’s letting bullies do your moderation for you if the aim is to get me to post less.
HNY

Like Bozza, I’ve avoided this thread for similar reasons.

If you’re being personally abused please report the post. We don’t read every post on every thread but we do read every report.

Happy New Year to you too sir

 

[Zeberdi]

Agreed.

I haven't posted on this thread for many weeks because I got fed up of the personal attacks, conducted...

- via PM direct to me
- via people registering numerous new NSC accounts, day after day, with abusive usernames


All of this coming from those of a pro-Israel persuasion who repeatedly accused me of being a Hamas-sympathiser and/or being anti-semitic because I questioned the indiscriminate killing of thousands of people conducted by the Israel state, and others were saying the same on a website I happen to own.

@Bozza - I am truly gutted that you have had to deal with all this - it makes the trolling/personal attacks I have received on this thread pale into insignificance

I also feel largely responsible for you coming under so much abuse as a result of this website content, since I have been the loudest and most prolific proponent of questioning the mass slaughter of civilians by Israel than anyone else on NSC - (As GB pointed out above ). When people start recklessly accusing others of working for terrorist organisations as you and I have faced, that poses a genuine personal risk and has potential implications they are not even aware of. Internet traffic gets monitored by security forces specifically for potential national security threats relating to jihadist radicalisation and anyone who isn’t aware of that is naive. You are incredibly appreciated by me personally that you have allowed such open debate on your website and we have had the freedom of speech to do so. I fear though that NSC is becoming the exception rather than the norm and you are walking against a wind of change - there has been a widely recognised ‘chilling effect’ preventing debate on Gaza throughout the West - Universities, schools, businesses, social media punishing those with pro-Palestinian povs and any position that is not pro-Israel being silenced. This was picked up on by the UN as far back as November 23 and has been coined ‘the new MaCarthyism by the Guardian :

I don’t know how much longer you can host a broad spectrum debate like this but as long as you are prepared to without putting the rest of the site at risk - thank you.

For my part I will tone it down a bit.

Is a new McCarthyism punishing pro-Palestine speech at US universities? Our panel reacts | Panelists

Researchers and civil liberties advocates call for the safeguarding of protected speech amid an uproar over campus activism

www.theguardian.com

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/speaking-out-gaza-israel-must-be-allowed-un-experts

 

[nicko31]

Agreed.

I haven't posted on this thread for many weeks because I got fed up of the personal attacks, conducted...

- via PM direct to me
- via people registering numerous new NSC accounts, day after day, with abusive usernames
- via the Argus comments section
- via creating rogue accounts on social media and targeting me with attempted phishing in order to obtain my contact details
- via a current standing Brighton & Hove councillor directly threatening me by way of "official" email

All of this coming from those of a pro-Israel persuasion who repeatedly accused me of being a Hamas-sympathiser and/or being anti-semitic because I questioned the indiscriminate killing of thousands of people conducted by the Israel state, and others were saying the same on a website I happen to own.

It's perfectly possible to have utter disdain for both Hamas and their actions as well as those responsible for the daily slaughter conducted in Gaza. it's perfectly possible to wish for peace for those living in Israel, Jews who reside elsewhere in the world and the innocent Palestinians who wish no ill on Israel and just want to get on with their lives free of oppression and fear.

Very depressing you have to deal with this, a sad reflection of the intolerance that exists in society today.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'll have to pick you up on that one Harry 'Its all Starmer's fault for not instantly condemning Israel and demanding a ceasefire'

I not sure anyone here has said that. He may come across to some as a lapdog who offers very little on this any different to the Tories or American / Biden policy but that's a bit strong and there certainly appears more of a concencus across both front benches of our own parliament.

The United Kingdom also supports Israel and profits from this conflict in continuing to sell arms. Not insignificant in my opinion, but something that should be campaigned against however small in pressure to bring about a ceasefire and opportunity for peace immediately and before Gaza and its "residents" are totally wiped out. Our policies make us complicit in this.

The UK currently stands alongside America and Israel in this conflict, which is pretty much the line Penny Mordant takes in her "Stand up and Fight" speech (I'm sure you'd like to watch & listen to it again because Labour front bench are right behind her imo) Ironically it is for freedom.





So there you have it. A nation standing together behind the Tories and America and Israel. Just don't anyone dare step out of line.

It was an early-doors post on the thread. It's definitely there somewhere. The left hates Starmer almost as much as the right hates him. I wonder why?

And lo, unto us, you have now done some dobbing of blame on Starmer yourself

I'll repeat, there is nothing the UK can do in terms of resolving the crisis, and much harm we could do to ourselves by picking a public fight with America. This is why I'm content with Starmer's stance (which isn't neutral and he's advocating proper talks for a long term solution - not something America wants, but the best any other nation can propose. And Starmer is not our PM, so there is no reason for the US to even know who he is).

If anyone stands alongside Israel and America it is Sunak. Not Starmer. Not that it matters. The only thing that would matter would be if we stood against Israel and America, risking hostility. My (former) union boycotted Israel a few years ago, and its activist members feel mighty smug about that. Meanwhile my former union has achieved f*** all in its own battles over pensions and salaries. You fight the battles you can win, in this world, if you have any brains, and win the battles you fight if you have sufficient abilities.

The big road block to peace remains America. If it threatened to pull the rug from under Israel, Israel would have to give their heads a wobble. But it is backing Israel, right or wrong in exactly the same way it backs gun ownership, right or wrong. If America carries on in the same way, the only solution would be an internal Israeli solution - a strong vote against Likud, and a bold new Israeli PM who is prepared to engage. Sadly the last time Israel had a PM willing to do this, he was murdered by a right wing Jewish zealot. So, I return again to America.

Finally, I also salute Starmer for not trying to turn this disaster into a political football which, were he to do so, would presumably be greeted by your applause (assuming you are in favour of forcing Israel to desist, the only alternative to pressing America privately to desist in their unequivocal support).

On a wider note, how could we stop Israel, if we decided we must do so? They are immune to threats. War, then? Invade Israel? As old Bushy used to say, 'genuine question'.

 

[armchairclubber]

It was an early-doors post on the thread. It's definitely there somewhere. The left hates Starmer almost as much as the right hates him. I wonder why?

And lo, unto us, you have now done some dobbing of blame on Starmer yourself

I'll repeat, there is nothing the UK can do in terms of resolving the crisis, and much harm we could do to ourselves by picking a public fight with America. This is why I'm content with Starmer's stance (which isn't neutral and he's advocating proper talks for a long term solution - not something America wants, but the best any other nation can propose. And Starmer is not our PM, so there is no reason for the US to even know who he is).

If anyone stands alongside Israel and America it is Sunak. Not Starmer. Not that it matters. The only thing that would matter would be if we stood against Israel and America, risking hostility. My (former) union boycotted Israel a few years ago, and its activist members feel mighty smug about that. Meanwhile my former union has achieved f*** all in its own battles over pensions and salaries. You fight the battles you can win, in this world, if you have any brains, and win the battles you fight if you have sufficient abilities.

The big road block to peace remains America. If it threatened to pull the rug from under Israel, Israel would have to give their heads a wobble. But it is backing Israel, right or wrong in exactly the same way it backs gun ownership, right or wrong. If America carries on in the same way, the only solution would be an internal Israeli solution - a strong vote against Likud, and a bold new Israeli PM who is prepared to engage. Sadly the last time Israel had a PM willing to do this, he was murdered by a right wing Jewish zealot. So, I return again to America.

Finally, I also salute Starmer for not trying to turn this disaster into a political football which, were he to do so, would presumably be greeted by your applause (assuming you are in favour of forcing Israel to desist, the only alternative to pressing America privately to desist in their unequivocal support).

On a wider note, how could we stop Israel, if we decided we must do so? They are immune to threats. War, then? Invade Israel? As old Bushy used to say, 'genuine question'.

I don't think I'm looking for any political football nor would I applaud it. Maybe just some sanctions that could send a different message. I'm not comfortable with the UK profiting from this situation, as it does from other conflicts.

South Africa has made its own move with its application to ICJ of Israel being in breach of the Genocide Convention, which SA has been castigated for by IsraeI in return. Anything "drastic" like that is obviously not looking likely to ever be considered here.

But by example something such as Zarah Sultana has called for ie suspending our own arms trade with Israel, I'm unsure whether that would or should be seen as standing against Israel and America or more opting out with neutrality. It would all be in the diplomacy. Israel may respond with similar accusations to those againt South Africa.

"On a wider note, how could we stop Israel, if we decided we must do so? They are immune to threats. War, then? Invade Israel? As old Bushy used to say, 'genuine question'."

genuine answer. I'm not suggesting we go to war with Israel.

You have given your own experiences & thanks.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't think I'm looking for any political football nor would I applaud it. Maybe just some sanctions that could send a different message. I'm not comfortable with the UK profiting from this situation, as it does from other conflicts.

South Africa has made its own move with its application to ICJ of Israel being in breach of the Genocide Convention, which SA has been castigated for by IsraeI in return. Anything "drastic" like that is obviously not looking likely to ever be considered here.

But by example something such as Zarah Sultana has called for ie suspending our own arms trade with Israel, I'm unsure whether that would or should be seen as standing against Israel and America or more opting out with neutrality. It would all be in the diplomacy. Israel may respond with similar accusations to those againt South Africa.

"On a wider note, how could we stop Israel, if we decided we must do so? They are immune to threats. War, then? Invade Israel? As old Bushy used to say, 'genuine question'."

genuine answer. I'm not suggesting we go to war with Israel.

You have given your own experiences & thanks.

Very thoughtful reply. Many thanks

Maybe, like a kaleidoscope, the picture will change suddenly, in ways I can't anticipate. I'm not wired for diplomacy, unfortunately.

 

[knocky1]

Agreed.

I haven't posted on this thread for many weeks because I got fed up of the personal attacks, conducted...

- via PM direct to me
- via people registering numerous new NSC accounts, day after day, with abusive usernames
- via the Argus comments section
- via creating rogue accounts on social media and targeting me with attempted phishing in order to obtain my contact details
- via a current standing Brighton & Hove councillor directly threatening me by way of "official" email

All of this coming from those of a pro-Israel persuasion who repeatedly accused me of being a Hamas-sympathiser and/or being anti-semitic because I questioned the indiscriminate killing of thousands of people conducted by the Israel state, and others were saying the same on a website I happen to own.

It's perfectly possible to have utter disdain for both Hamas and their actions as well as those responsible for the daily slaughter conducted in Gaza. it's perfectly possible to wish for peace for those living in Israel, Jews who reside elsewhere in the world and the innocent Palestinians who wish no ill on Israel and just want to get on with their lives free of oppression and fear.

Very difficult time for you Bozza and your reaction is magnanimous.
Perfect synopsis.

 

[thejackal]

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Absolutely this.

There's a lot of twaddle on here about the Palestinians being the obstacle to a peaceful solution, when anyone with an objective viewpoint and a cursory understanding of international relations will tell you that Israel is the barrier. After almost 80 years of oppression the Palestinians are desperate for a chance to just exist.

You only have to look the voting record on UN resolution 242.

 

[BadFish]

This is heartbreaking to read.

It has long since been a suspicion that accusations of anti semitism following any criticism of Israel was a tactic to silence said criticism.

Now we have the site owner and moderator reticent to post and a poster who has taught many others so much about this conflict advised to post less. Let's be clear as well none of these people have posted anything approaching pro Hamas content. Rather moderate and balanced criticism of a requiem that continues their assault.

If the end game of this mob is to silence any opposition (no matter how moderate) then they have surely succeeded.

Job done I suppose.