[News] Middle East conflict

[armchairclubber]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

As sickening and unfortunate her plight may be (I haven't heard the individual case though don't doubt your account), do you think that Israel, US with complicit UK continuing with their Genocide of a nation will help her cause?
Israel has other means of defending itself, even wih help of the West and any opportunity for dialogue.

 

[armchairclubber]

Merged? Yes, into this thread. Shut down? No, as it’s been merged into this thread.

It can sometimes be difficult to assess whether a new thread is actually a new thread or whether it’s simply a place where the same debate will be had. For examples of the latter, see the early threads on Brexit-related stuff and Covid-related stuff. If we hadn’t merged all the new threads on Brexit we’d have had over 100 - this makes following a moving news story impossible.

I think the key word in your post is ‘slightly’. I agree; that’s why I merged the thread.

Nonetheless, I’ve edited the thread title to be somewhat more up to date and a little broader.

Thankyou for taking note and your actions.

 

[Boys 9d]

From CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/middleeast/babies-al-nasr-gaza-hospital-what-we-know-intl/index.html

 

[sydney]

We are closer to the fictional hunger games than some may think.
The government waste our taxes on absolute shite like Rwanda and filling French pockets to do the square root of FA, yet happy to leave the poorest in the country well more destitute than they already are.
If I have to listen to that monotone plumed voiced Sunak for much longer I will crack up.

100% mate ....younger generations have been conditioned by films such as hunger games , divergent , enders games....etc. even as far back as star wars there has been perceived struggle against authority ....now its here , in plain sight , like a really shit film with a shit plot ,but it's real

 

[bWize]

100% mate ....younger generations have been conditioned by films such as hunger games , divergent , enders games....etc. even as far back as star wars there has been perceived struggle against authority ....now its here , in plain sight , like a really shit film with a shit plot ,but it's real

1984

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Actually I'm more of the thought that this started in 1948 when Isreal was created without the agreement of the Arab peoples. Emboldening and arming the Isrealis seems to be seriously backfiring now! To say a monster has been created is an understatment. Having said that both of these populations of people deserve a place to live in peace. It is impossible to see how that can happen with both sides committing atrocities and refusing to recognise the humanity of the other...

Yes, I agree that if Israel didn't exist there would be no conflict, but that's hardly a solution.

If we focus simply on the present situation, it is clear that Hamas started it, hoping for an Arab nation pile in. Perhaps they may describe it as a cry for help. However I wouldn't be inclined to believe them.

I see that America has vetoed a call for ceasefire. The argument is this would simply allow Hamas to regroup and start again (in a war they can never win, without the help of Arab nations and Iran. Which isn't going to happen.) With Bibi running Israel this is a perfect storm. Until people accept that history started today rather than in 1948, or 1967 all that will happen is death.

 

[pocketseagull]

The Labour party today delivers its strongest criticism of Israel over its attacks on Palestinians, describing the death and destruction in Gaza over the past two months as “intolerable” and attacking two far-right Israeli cabinet ministers for “totally unacceptable” support of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

In a sharp change of tone, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, with the full backing of party leader Keir Starmer, attacks the Israeli authorities for “turning a blind eye” to violence by settlers in the West Bank, which has “forcibly displaced” more than 1,000 Palestinians from their homes since the attacks on Israel by Hamas on 7 October.


He criticises far-right ministers for pumping huge sums into the budget for settlements, which threaten any hope of a political solution, while “defunding the Palestinian Authority and promoting dangerous and extreme rhetoric about Palestinians”.

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

www.theguardian.com

 

[knocky1]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

They will kill more than the 17,000 civilians, including 8,000 children they've killed so far, and move permanently into Gaza.
From the river to the sea, Israel will be Israel.

 

[knocky1]

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

www.theguardian.com

Too little too late by Starmer's Blairite war mongerering shadow cabinet.
Peter Kyle get a grip.

 

[wellquickwoody]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

It will have to sit down and have genuine talks about a two state solution and not stealing land from oppressed Arabs. Once an agreement is reached, if possible, this can be policed by the UN.

 

[Justice]

They will kill more than the 17,000 civilians, including 8,000 children they've killed so far, and move permanently into Gaza.
From the river to the sea, Israel will be Israel.

Have they got their sights set on the 3 billion barrels of oil sitting under Gaza?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Too little too late by Starmer's Blairite war mongerering shadow cabinet.
Peter Kyle get a grip.

You get a grip.

FFS.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Keep speaking up. I suspect your comments are generally well received. The bit I have highlighted is unquestionably correct. The problem is that it is also unquestionably understandable, if it is the case that there is a prominent element in Palestinians, Lebanon, Iran and possibly Syria that see as the ends game, all the Jews in the sea.

What I don't know is how entrenched that Arab position is, and whether there is any scope for negotiation. And then of course the west bank is out of control, with illegal settlement and violation of the rule of law actively encouraged by Bibi.

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

ps, correct me if I am wrong but it seems there are no western governments saying to Bibi 'stop now, or else'. Certainly not our tiny wanka, or sleepy Joe. In which case we can do nothing other than sit ad watch

Isn’t it only us (abstained) and the US (against) who are not for calls for an immediate ceasefire from the UN?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

This whole thread is full of me highlighting the appalling situation in Gaza, the policy of settlement expansion by the Netanyahu Government across the West Bank and the genocidal, extremist right wing policies pervading the Israel Government’s approach to the ‘Palestinian problem’ and the brutal political and social realities of life under illegal occupation for them. The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza we are witnessing is directly caused by the disproportionate response by Israel to the Hamas attacks on top of years of blockades and for no other reason.

It maybe true that speaking out as I have done has probably been a waste of time as a few posters have said - it’s certainly not done me any favours.

But sadly, It is often the case that by the time the majority of opinion sees the truth of human rights abuses and genocide, it is often too late to save the populations concerned. When any nation of people under go destruction of all necessary infrastructure for a society to survive, blanket forced removal of people from their homes and widespread slaughter of innocent civilians - the objectives of genocide have already all but been achieved.

Seeing Genocide - Boston Review

Israel’s weaponization of images since October 7 obfuscates its genocidal campaign against Palestinians.

www.bostonreview.net

It’s NOT a waste of time.

If anybody thinks this is in danger of being anti-Semitic, I am sure plenty of Jews worldwide, including in Israel, would agree with you.

 

[pocketseagull]

Of the five permanent members Russia also abstained, France and China voted for a ceasefire.

Overall 121 voted for, 44 abstained, 14 against

 

[Motogull]

The best commentary on this can be seen in Last Week Tonight.

It is really fair and balanced. There are plenty of Palestinians that oppose Hamas and plenty of Israelis that oppose their government.

More bombs dropped in Gaza than the US managed in a whole year in Afghanistan. Hamas still firing missiles and Israel still bombing. Pack in in all of you.

A very depressing watch.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Isn’t it only us (abstained) and the US (against) who are not for calls for an immediate ceasefire from the UN?

I have no time at all for Sunak but I don't blame him on this occasions for not engaging with gesture politics.

The entire decision whether to do something, anything from boycotting Israel to invading it, is in the hands of America.

Anyway, my former union boycotted Israel a couple of years ago, so some people are doing *all they can*. I'm sure the leaders of my former union are giving themselves a massive cuddle over their important and righteous stance.

As for the strange person above who seems to think the entire middle east crisis was caused by Tony Blair.....

Its no wonder the world can't help a facilitation of a solution here. The world seems to be full of people who don't really understand much, and don't really care. (I don't mean you, btw; fair question).

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I have no time at all for Sunak but I don't blame him on this occasions for not engaging with gesture politics.

The entire decision whether to do something, anything from boycotting Israel to invading it, is in the hands of America.

Anyway, my former union boycotted Israel a couple of years ago, so some people are doing *all they can*. I'm sure the leaders of my former union are giving themselves a massive cuddle over their important and righteous stance.

As for the strange person above who seems to think the entire middle east crisis was caused by Tony Blair.....

Its no wonder the world can't help a facilitation of a solution here. The world seems to be full of people who don't really understand much, and don't really care. (I don't mean you, btw; fair question).

All Tony Blair’s fault? Of course! Why couldn’t I see that!

It’s got nothing to do with tensions in the Middle East which go back not decades, not centuries but millennia!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The best commentary on this can be seen in Last Week Tonight.

It is really fair and balanced. There are plenty of Palestinians that oppose Hamas and plenty of Israelis that oppose their government.

More bombs dropped in Gaza than the US managed in a whole year in Afghanistan. Hamas still firing missiles and Israel still bombing. Pack in in all of you.

A very depressing watch.

I have a vague recollection of a small boy getting beaten up by a bigger boy in the school playground, and despite being bloodied and bowed the small boy kept getting up and running after the bigger boy and starting the fight over again, whereupon (you can guess the rest). The situation ceased only when an even bigger person (a teacher) intervened.

The conflict will never cease until the US steps in, chucks the 'settlers' out of the west bank, disarms Gaza and rebuilds it, and persuades Israel to adopt a system that does not allow a charismatic leader to run riot (Bibi has been changing laws, in much the same way Braverman wants the UK to change its laws, for extreme right wing expedience - beware the slide into fascism).

And none of this is ever going to happen, so Israel will carry on doing whatever it's population votes for. It's population, like that in various other parts of the world, seems now obsessed with rabid nationalism (which is why it keeps the likes of Bibi in power, despite all he has done to reveal what he really is).

I have no idea what 'we' can do. How many candle-lit vigils can the candle industry sustain? How many 'Blairite war mongering' labour MPs can we deselect or vote out (to be replaced by, er, pro-Palestinian, er, conservatives? )? How many US products like MacDonalds and Disneyland can we boycott?

I suppose if we can learn one thing from this it is how powerless the UK is on the world stage, and how powerless we humble voters are.

 

[borat]

Too little too late by Starmer's Blairite war mongerering shadow cabinet.
Peter Kyle get a grip.

Indeed. Peter Kyle is a Labour Friends of Israel Chair so don't hope for too much action from him.

Odd form of democracy we are developing in the UK where out politicians on both parties are subject to heavy influence from a hard right foreign Apartheid state that is and has for decades commited horrendous war crimes and occupied another people. In a sane world Israel would be a pariah state.

Our morals and how they are applied depend wholly on who is the perpetrator. Saudi Arabia is another example.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210415-israel-and-saudi-arabia-buy-influence-in-britain-as-the-lobbying-scandal-grows/

It continues out of office - Tony Blair has continued to line his pockets over the years from that (and other despotic) regimes.

LIke others have said, ultimately we are just the tail of the dog being wagged by the US where their democracy is more compromised than ours - heavily influenced by powerful lobby groups (including non-Israeli ones -NRA, Oil etc)