[Politics] May - In or Out?

[Simster]

No one is asking you to apologise. But the views of others are equally valid. There are a handful of posters who listen to all and are flexible minded, far too few. I think loads of those piling in with angry comments, never positive, are staunchy anti Tory, they were in say 2009 and they are today. Clouding all judgement about evil May, evil Cameron, etc, etc. Blinkered to ignore the staunch anti-EU views of Corbyn, McDonnell, union leaders and others in the Labour movement. In short, armchair class warfare clouding all judgement.

You're making the mistake of thinking anyone staunchly opposed to Brexit is not flexible-minded and is conducting class warfare. Well there's nothing class warfare about my position. I just happen to think Brexit is a complete mess and that the Tories are entirely responsible for that. I'm no fan of Corbyn or his ideological socialist politics, but would happily vote for them if he promised a second vote. Put bluntly, I believe 5 years of dogmatic socialism would be considerably less damaging to the economy than the Brexit that May is forcing on us. Now just because you're seemingly indifferent or disagree with me on that, it doesn't mean you've somehow got right on your side. I can be fairly even handed in politics too, just not on this issue.

But rather than insisting that people like you who evidently don't feel as strongly about Brexit are the "flexible minded" ones who aren't conducting class warfare, perhaps you could constructively tell me some good things about this deal May has negotiated?

 

[Weststander]

You're making the mistake of thinking anyone staunchly opposed to Brexit is not flexible-minded and is conducting class warfare. Well there's nothing class warfare about my position. I just happen to think Brexit is a complete mess and that the Tories are entirely responsible for that. I'm no fan of Corbyn or his ideological socialist politics, but would happily vote for them if he promised a second vote. Put bluntly, I believe 5 years of dogmatic socialism would be considerably less damaging to the economy than the Brexit that May is forcing on us. Now just because you're seemingly indifferent or disagree with me on that, it doesn't mean you've somehow got right on your side. I can be fairly even handed in politics too, just not on this issue.

But rather than insisting that people like you who evidently don't feel as strongly about Brexit are the "flexible minded" ones who aren't conducting class warfare, perhaps you could constructively tell me some good things about this deal May has negotiated?

What is the better deal that could otherwise have been negotiated, meeting the Brexit vote requirement to leave the EU?

Given that we’re dealing with a much larger party the EU and the deal needs to get through Parliament.

 

[The Clamp]

No one has come after you? What was the below from all about

“Some poster on here who used to post a load of racist bile kept following me round the board and sent me a PM saying he was going to have me done over when he gets remand from prison. “

Yeah that was unfortunate. I think he might have had Aspergers.

 

[clapham_gull]

I must have either misheard or misunderstood the news at lunchtime as i took it to mean that skilled workers would be welcome but unskilled manual workers from abroad wouldnt be welcome. I would ask do we not have sufficient unemployed who could get off of their arses and fill those jobs rather than claim benefits

Not really.

The country will be able to bring in whoever it wants when it needs it, but EU citizens won't have an advantage over other countries.

The Government has already announced that Farmers will be able to bring in 2,500 non EU workers a year from next Spring after they proved that Brexit had already led to a shortage of workers.

 

[clapham_gull]

That is irrelevant. I am taking issue with your assertion that she has done a decent job. She hasn't. She has made a difficult situation (inherited from Call Me Dave) considerably more difficult by failing to galvanise her party to campaign properly (remember she refused to appear on a TV leader debate), she has allowed a fringe party of lunatics to dictate how she negotiates a Brexit deal, and above all, she hasn't achieved anything yet because this isn't going to get through parliament.

There is as much blame to be directed Corbyn's way who hid.

 

[Gwylan]

Given that we’re dealing with a much larger party the EU and the deal needs to get through Parliament.

Getting a deal through parliament should have been easy. May should have ignored the handful of swivel-eyed headbangers in her party and negotiated with Labour for a deal that would suit both major parties. She tried to please a group of 40 rather than a group of 250 - that was a major tactical error.

The EU would certainly be trickier but she made it harder for herself by stating, from the outset, there were red lines that couldn't be crossed - it reduced the amount of flexibility she had.

 

[Simster]

There is as much blame to be directed Corbyn's way who hid.

Disagree. As I understand it, he simply wrestled with his conscience - he's not pro EU. Where he has let people down is his unwillingness to commit to a 2nd vote now that what is on the table looks like a complete shambles.

 

[clapham_gull]

Disagree. As I understand it, he simply wrestled with his conscience - he's not pro EU. Where he has let people down is his unwillingness to commit to a 2nd vote now that what is on the table looks like a complete shambles.

wrestled with his conscience ?

He is party leader.

 

[Simster]

wrestled with his conscience ?

He is party leader.

Yes, and?

I'm not saying I agree with it, and he's been a wet blanket over it ever since. But ultimately, he didn't create that mess; the Tories did.

 

[GT49er]

............ a second referendum, or a people's vote if you want to use that silly euphemism.

Silly euphemism indeed. The people's vote took place in 2016, and came up with a result that probably 90% of all Westminster politicians didn't want. As well as conforming to the EU's standard policy for referendums that give the 'wrong' answer, a re-vote would be the politicians' vote - the politicians who are lived that the people didn't agree with their views and would love a different result.
Failing that, presumably a third referendum...................

 

[Simster]

Silly euphemism indeed. The people's vote took place in 2016, and came up with a result that probably 90% of all Westminster politicians didn't want. As well as conforming to the EU's standard policy for referendums that give the 'wrong' answer, a re-vote would be the politicians' vote - the politicians who are lived that the people didn't agree with their views and would love a different result.
Failing that, presumably a third referendum...................

But the problem we have now is that the deal on the table is considerably worse than the status quo, and there is ample evidence suggesting plenty among the electorate have changed their minds. Nobody voted to get poorer.

 

[Weststander]

There is as much blame to be directed Corbyn's way who hid.

Absolutely true and often forgotten. Brown, Blair, Cameron, Corbyn, McDonnell and Osborn all either wildly underestimated the anti EU anger in England and Wales, or deliberately did not pipe up because they’re lifelong very anti EU themselves.

Their better and sustained efforts may well have swung it.

Brown’s late intervention in the Scottish Independence referendum was telling, just for example.

 

[GT49er]

But the problem we have now is that the deal on the table is considerably worse than the status quo, and there is ample evidence suggesting plenty among the electorate have changed their minds. Nobody voted to get poorer.

Actually I think you'll find that a large proportion of leave voters accepted there might be a slight downturn in economic prosperity; and voted for it because getting out of the EU is far more important than a few quid a week less buying power in their pockets. The reason remain lost is because they offered nothing except projected economic arguments, not because leavers were thick and didn't know what they were voting for.

 

[Simster]

Absolutely true and often forgotten. Brown, Blair, Cameron, Corbyn, McDonnell and Osborn all either wildly underestimated the anti EU anger in England and Wales, or deliberately did not pipe up because they’re lifelong very anti EU themselves.

Their better and sustained efforts may well have swung it.

Brown’s late intervention in the Scottish Independence referendum was telling, just for example.

To be fair, some of those people said nothing because they were advised their input would do more harm than good.

 

[Simster]

Actually I think you'll find that a large proportion of leave voters accepted there might be a slight downturn in economic prosperity; and voted for it because getting out of the EU is far more important than a few quid a week less buying power in their pockets. The reason remain lost is because they offered nothing except projected economic arguments, not because leavers were thick and didn't know what they were voting for.

So you *did* vote to get poorer. Oh OK, although I'm fairly sure you don't speak for all leavers. For one, Gwylan voted leave but didn't expect the extreme lunatics to be insisting we quit the Customs Union as well.

Personally I'm still not sure why quitting the EU was so important to you. What are we going to gain that we didn't have already?

 

[Weststander]

But the problem we have now is that the deal on the table is considerably worse than the status quo, and there is ample evidence suggesting plenty among the electorate have changed their minds. Nobody voted to get poorer.

Are you looking at just, potentially, the financial outcome?

My understanding from chatting with a wholeload of Brexiteers at the time was that they loathed Brussels/Strasbourg holding an increasing powers, plus swathes of England and Wales were seething about their changed communities, with the ensuing nightmare of a lack of housing, gp waiting lists, school places and so on.

 

[Chicken Run]

Yeah that was unfortunate. I think he might have had Aspergers.

Remember my friend if you’re gonna lie you better have a good memory.

 

[The Clamp]

Remember my friend if you’re gonna lie you better have a good memory.

Oh change the record, Grandad.

 

[GT49er]

So you *did* vote to get poorer. Oh OK, although I'm fairly sure you don't speak for all leavers. For one, Gwylan voted leave but didn't expect the extreme lunatics to be insisting we quit the Customs Union as well.

Personally I'm still not sure why quitting the EU was so important to you. What are we going to gain that we didn't have already?

Never wanted to join in the first place - voted no in 1975. There was project fear back then, too, but it didn't fool me. Always suspected that the agenda was far more than just some sort of customs union/free trade area - and I was right. Countless times our government (including the beloved of some, Thatcher) signed up to things in the EU that we, the public, were never given a say in. CAP, CFP, wine lake, butter mountain - never wanted any of that. Euro? Don't want that either and before you mention it, I know we're not in it - but sure as eggs are eggs, if the EU feels they have managed to face down our attempt to break away and leave, the choice to opt out of the Euro won't last long.

 

[Simster]

Are you looking at just, potentially, the financial outcome?

My understanding from chatting with a wholeload of Brexiteers at the time was that they loathed Brussels/Strasbourg holding an increasing powers, plus swathes of England and Wales were seething about their changed communities, with the ensuing nightmare of a lack of housing, gp waiting lists, school places and so on.

Are you going to provide one positive aspect of Brexit like I asked, seeing as I answered your question?