[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

[crodonilson]

Prejudice is the forming of opinions when you don't have facts to justify them.

Here's a fact that might help your prejudices. The BNP, at the 2019 general election, had 510 votes. In 2017, they did rather better with 4,580.

Here's another fact. The "red wall" was traditionally Labour, and although the Labour voters may have migrated to the Tories via UKIP, migrate they did. The current Toryness of the smaller northern industrial towns is not caused by a recombining of the right-wing vote.

So you are saying you disagree with the fact that working class and vote leave areas are less racist than the rest of the nation (which in itself hasbeen institutionally racist for many years).

 

[Eeyore]

Well what ?
Regards
DF

I don't know why these things matter to you, or anyone, with all else that needs concern. You seem to rally so much about issues of identity yourself, albeit in a rather contrasting manner.

I'd rather a gender fluid, knee taker than a tin hated, Union Jack waving zealot with a narrow view of existence.

 

[clapham_gull]

I don't agree. The coalition saw a dampening of the excesses of some Tory policies.

I didn't believe what the papers had to say on it.

Bit more complex that, with the also Tories softening their image by taking credit for some Liberal Democratic ones.

I read a number of books on the period by those involved. Behind the scenes Clegg was being neutered from day one, he had no where to work and didn't even a laptop. The Tories saw them coming.

The bottom line is that it destroyed the Lib Dems as political force in this country for years.

 

[KeithDublin]

Prejudice is the forming of opinions when you don't have facts to justify them.

Here's a fact that might help your prejudices. The BNP, at the 2019 general election, had 510 votes. In 2017, they did rather better with 4,580.

Here's another fact. The "red wall" was traditionally Labour, and although the Labour voters may have migrated to the Tories via UKIP, migrate they did. The current Toryness of the smaller northern industrial towns is not caused by a recombining of the right-wing vote.

Well, none of that's true.

2005 and 2010 BNP poll approx 4000
2010 Tories 7000
2015 UKIP poll 7000, the BNP had no candidate. I feel it's fairly safe to say that a lot of the BNP votes went directly to UKIP - the tories got 5000 that year, again those 2000 probably went to UKIP. So the UKIPs vote (7000) is made up of 4000 BNP and 2000 tories (plus 1000 others)
2017 Tories 12,500 and UKIP 2500
2019 Tories 15000 (remind me what 12500 and 2500 is again)

I know it's not as simple as that, but it does seem very clear that a lot of the reason that the tories won in Burnley is the combining of the far right and right wing vote

 

[dsr-burnley]

So you are saying you disagree with the fact that working class and vote leave areas are less racist than the rest of the nation (which in itself hasbeen institutionally racist for many years).

No I'm not.

Like I say, prejudice is caused by forming opinions when you have not enough knowledge to justify them.

Are you still confident the 510 BNP votes are a major reason for the Tory successes yesterday?

 

[Eeyore]

Bit more complex that, with the also Tories softening their image by taking credit for some Liberal Democratic ones.

I read a number of books on the period by those involved. Behind the scenes Clegg was being neutered from day one, he had no where to work and didn't even a laptop. The Tories saw them coming.

The bottom line is that it destroyed the Lib Dems as political force in this country for years.

I never quite worked out how folks blamed the Lib Dems for so much and the Tories got in. Then again, a look at the real votes shows something different. The Tories only gained an extra 0.8% and just over a third of the overall vote. Enough to see them home.

That's what I don't understand about politics, it's based on unfathomable assumptions and illogical equations- such as saying the Tories were given a thumping mandate in 2019 when the majority of the country voted for other parties.

The parliamentary system gave them a thumping mandate, the system, not the voting.

The whole system of governing and accountability in this country is based on false premise and false representation. Yet folk buy into the system.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Well, none of that's true.

2005 and 2010 BNP poll approx 4000
2010 Tories 7000
2015 UKIP poll 7000, the BNP had no candidate. I feel it's fairly safe to say that a lot of the BNP votes went directly to UKIP - the tories got 5000 that year, again those 2000 probably went to UKIP. So the UKIPs vote (7000) is made up of 4000 BNP and 2000 tories (plus 1000 others)
2017 Tories 12,500 and UKIP 2500
2019 Tories 15000 (remind me what 12500 and 2500 is again)

I know it's not as simple as that, but it does seem very clear that a lot of the reason that the tories won in Burnley is the combining of the far right and right wing vote

No. The BNP, in the 2019 general election, got 510 votes IN TOTAL out of the 32 million cast. None of them were in Burnley.

But let's talk about the Burnley constituency if you like. In 1997 there was no BNP candidate for the parliamentary constituency, but in the next few years, one Labour mayor was caught and pleaded guilty to gross indecency in a public toilet in a Nelson park, in the middle of the day, at half-term. (And when a motion was put to the council that gross public indecency was behaviour not appropriate to a councillor, it was voted down by the Labour majority. The council held, and so far as I know has never rescinded, the view that gross indecency in a park at half-term is fine.) Another Labour mayor was caught registering his parents to vote even though they did live in this country and never had. Several other Labour councillors were disqualified for dishing out the best council houses to their friends. That was the background against which the BNP won quite a lot of council seats off Labour.

Then in 2001, the BNP stood for the first time in a Burnley parliamentary election and got 11.3% of the vote. They didn't take those votes from the Tories whose vote share went up a fraction. The Labour vote dropped by 8.6%. I would therefore dispute the idea that those votes are "right wing" votes that should be lumped in with the Tories.

Second major error - as you point out, in 2010 the Conservative/BNP/UKIP vote was 11,626 or 27.8% of the total votes. In 2019 the Conservative vote was 15,720 or 40.3%. However you dress it up, this is a significant increase. You can't just put it down to an amalgamation of all the "right wing" votes including those taken from Labour.

But the third error is the daftest of all. I hope it's just something you have missed in the rush to get into print. You have assumed that all of the 2,472 votes for Nigel Farage's UKIP in 2017 went to the Tories in 2019, which by definition means that none of them went to Nigel Farage's Brexit party. And therefore the 3,362 votes for the Brexit party came from Labour and Liberal voters. That, I'm sure you will agree, is nonsense. So the total "right wing" votes in Burnley is 19,221. Now perhaps you could re-assess your argument about those 19,221 votes being merely a combination of the 11,626 from nine years earlier? Preferably with out the patronising arithmetical footnotes?

 

[clapham_gull]

I never quite worked out how folks blamed the Lib Dems for so much and the Tories got in. Then again, a look at the real votes shows something different. The Tories only gained an extra 0.8% and just over a third of the overall vote. Enough to see them home.

That's what I don't understand about politics, it's based on unfathomable assumptions and illogical equations- such as saying the Tories were given a thumping mandate in 2019 when the majority of the country voted for other parties.

The parliamentary system gave them a thumping mandate, the system, not the voting.

The whole system of governing and accountability in this country is based on false premise and false representation. Yet folk buy into the system.

I agree, but the Lib Dems were incredibly naïve and blinded by power. They never had a cats chance on hell of getting into power with The Tories and changing the system from the inside to make it more representative.

One of senior ones in the pact used to lived very near me. I couldn't believe how openly he would "talk shop" on his mobile and was clearly loving the rush and attention.

Prior to that election the party had effectively been taken over by centre right thinking thinkers who aligned themselves closer to Tory views than Labour. However the party has always been credible when positioned as a refuge for mildly left of centre voters who struggle when the Labour party becomes factional over ideological issues.

Arguably, when Corbyn became leader it was their time, but they had effectively blown themselves up by lurching to the right previously.

The Brexit argument was lost and the Greens are obviously more authentic regarding "green" issues.

The electorate has no idea what they stand for and will be in the electoral wilderness for years.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I don't know why these things matter to you, or anyone, with all else that needs concern. You seem to rally so much about issues of identity yourself, albeit in a rather contrasting manner.

I'd rather a gender fluid, knee taker than a tin hated, Union Jack waving zealot with a narrow view of existence.

Of course you would ,how narrow minded of you
Regards
DF

 

[Eeyore]

Johnson says in interview that it's thanks to Brexit that we are 'able to deal things like the.... European Super League....'




So to clarify, if you hadn't voted leave we couldn't have stopped it.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Johnson says in interview that it's thanks to Brexit that we are 'able to deal things like the.... European Super League....'





So to clarify, if you hadn't voted leave we couldn't have stopped it.

Without getting dragged into the political argument too far, there have been figures at UEFA and also the Juve chairman who have said that Britain being outside the EU played a key role in the British clubs pulling out.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Johnson says in interview that it's thanks to Brexit that we are 'able to deal things like the.... European Super League....'




So to clarify, if you hadn't voted leave we couldn't have stopped it.

Shouldn’t that be on the Brexit or ESL threads ?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If I'm honest I don't think Labour would do any better. The economy here and the world is going through a massive change, what with green issues, covid and so on.
I really don't know what else the government can do to make things better.

 

[Brian Fantana]

As someone who lives in the Hartlepool constituency, the election result came as no surprise to me at all. If anything, I’m surprised that Tory majority wasn’t even larger.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

As someone who lives in the Hartlepool constituency, the election result came as no surprise to me at all. If anything, I’m surprised that Tory majority wasn’t even larger.

I'd be interested to hear more. The choice of candidate was obviously mind blowing but there is clearly a bit more to it than that.

 

[BadFish]

This thread is heartbreaking. Lots of talk about why people haven't voted Labour but not much about the benefits of voting for the Tories.

 

[Eeyore]

Shouldn’t that be on the Brexit or ESL threads ?

No, because he said it when interviewed about the Hartlepool result.

 

[zefarelly]

This thread is heartbreaking. Lots of talk about why people haven't voted Labour but not much about the benefits of voting for the Tories.

 

[gazingdown]

This thread is heartbreaking. Lots of talk about why people haven't voted Labour but not much about the benefits of voting for the Tories.

Why are they going to bother, they are just going to get shouted down rather than receive engaging discussion.

 

[BadFish]

Why are they going to bother, they are just going to get shouted down rather than receive engaging discussion.

Just an observation.

Seem to be a fair few on her talking about how Labour are unelectable. It is just interesting to me that people seem to be talking more about what is wrong with Labour than what is right with the Conservatives. From the outside looking in it appears that this is where UK politics is at the moment. I think it is a shame.

Not to mention those reveling as their 'team' have won.