Malaysian airline crash

[dingodan]

That link is just putin's propaganda.
I trust friends and family from Ukraine, none of whom are 'fascists' nor who know of any.

w/e

 

[sparkie]

The coup did not happen organically, it was "assisted" by the U.S.

Yes, putin would like people to believe in this US provoked 'coup'.

The reality when you know people there is that it was nothing of the sort.

 

[martyn20]

w/e

Amazing how you dismiss everything from one side as propaganda and accept everything from the other side as gospel

 

[dingodan]

Amazing how you dismiss everything from one side as propaganda and accept everything from the other side as gospel

Yes, and you are doing kind of the same.

Despite the fact that what I posted was written by a Foreign Policy Analyst for the Huffington Post, you declare it propaganda. On what basis? Because it doesn't fit with your view.

We do have to decide who we believe, but it goes back to what I said earlier, interfering and stirring up revolutions when we don't like a government is standard practice.

The US press has downplayed the role of Svoboda, and even more far-right groups like Right Sector and Common Cause, but Britain’s Channel 4 News reports that such quasi-fascist groups “played a leading role” in organizing the demonstrations and keeping them going.

In the intercepted phone call between US Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, the two were, as Russian expert Stephen Cohen put it to Democracy Now, “plotting a coup d’état against the elected president of Ukraine.”

http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt#

Now is it that a Foreign Policy Analyst for the Huffington Post, Stephen Cohen of Princeton & Channel 4, are all peddling Russian propaganda?

Maybe you just haven't been looking closely enough at what has been happening.

I showed you an article by John Pilger offering you another perspective on this, John Pilger is a world renowned investigative journalist. (I think you would like John Pilger by the way, you should check out his work).

 

[martyn20]

Yes, and you are doing kind of the same.

Despite the fact that what I posted was written by a Foreign Policy Analyst for the Huffington Post, you declare it propaganda. On what basis? Because it doesn't fit with your view.

We do have to decide who we believe, but it goes back to what I said earlier, interfering and stirring up revolutions when we don't like a government is standard practice.



http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt#

Now is it that a Foreign Policy Analyst for the Huffington Post, Stephen Cohen of Princeton & Channel 4, are all peddling Russian propaganda?

Maybe you just haven't been looking closely enough at what has been happening.

I showed you an article by John Pilger offering you another perspective on this, John Pilger is a world renowned investigative journalist. (I think you would like John Pilger by the way, you should check out his work).

John Pilger is not an unbiased reporter.
Your comments about Ukrainian persecution of Jews that has not even happened yet says everything about your view of the country and this incident.

 

[dingodan]

John Pilger is not an unbiased reporter.
Your comments about Ukrainian persecution of Jews that has not even happened yet says everything about your view of the country and this incident.

It was said that Christians would be persecuted in Iraq if Saddam was removed.

Nobody listened to that either.

 

[martyn20]

Black boxes have been handed over at a press conference. Just wish the investigators had been able to get them themselves from where they landed, lets hope they are not damaged.

 

[dingodan]

[MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION] I think you and I have some principles which are the same. Where we differ is that you continue to believe that the West is a force for good, honest, noble, or something like that.

You are in for a surprise one day.

 

[martyn20]

[MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION] I think you and I have some principles which are the same. Where we differ is that you continue to believe that the West is a force for good, honest, noble, or something like that.

You are in for a surprise one day.

That's where you get me wrong time and time again, I have said recently about the West's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan were not good, honest or noble and that pattern has been repeated many times before and many times since.
I look at this case on the information and evidence available. Rebels inside Ukraine who are trained and armed by Russia (many may actually be Russian military) brought down a plane, they boasted about it until they realised they had brought down a passenger jet and then they denied it. Those rebels have since blocked access to the evidence.
I think you know that too but your hatred for the Ukrainians means you will not accept they are not involved, they have to be involved, right?

 

[dingodan]

That's where you get me wrong time and time again, I have said recently about the West's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan were not good, honest or noble and that pattern has been repeated many times before and many times since.
I look at this case on the information and evidence available. Rebels inside Ukraine who are trained and armed by Russia (many may actually be Russian military) brought down a plane, they boasted about it until they realised they had brought down a passenger jet and then they denied it. Those rebels have since blocked access to the evidence.
I think you know that too but your hatred for the Ukrainians means you will not accept they are not involved, they have to be involved, right?

I don't hate Ukrainians, that's not a nice thing to say.

Look, neither of us want anything other than the people of Ukraine to be free and self determined. That is what I am into. So are you I think.

Even the leaders sitting around the UN Security Council are careful to not say that the Rebels brought down the plane because that has not been established. I am aware that a video exists, and just like we might not immediately accept a Russian produced video, nor should we necessarily immediately accept a Ukrainian produced video. It is still refereed to as unverified as far as I am aware.

As I pointed out before there was an accident a few years ago where Russia accidentally shot down a plane. The U.S. lied to make it appear deliberate. Doctored audio intercepts were used at the time.

In 2001 the Ukrainian military denied shooting down a passenger plane, they later had to admit they had done.

I only say this to make you understand that no side can be taken at face value on this, and you are accepting one sides version of events, prejudging one side as honest, and one side as deceitful.

It has been reported that the Rebels have blocked access. It has also been reported that the investigators have been deliberately slow, so as to be able to say they have been impeded. Would that be done so it could be spun to score a propaganda victory? Sadly it's not out of the question.

I do not hate Ukrainians. Do you want to know why there is a genuine issue with Neo Nazis in the new Ukrainian regime? Because when you go in to a country to overthrow the government using force, you need people who are willing to do that. The democratic minded person in Ukraine is going to want to effect change using reason, peacefully. If you want to effect a coup, you need people willing to use force. You end up with thugs, or in this case, Neo Nazis. Ukrainians are not Neo Nazis, but some of the ones we have helped to seize power are.

Read the article, I wasn't saying anything about Ukrainians in general please don't think that. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

I don't know if you accept that the U.S. was involved in the coup, but where you are seeing the threat to the decent people of Ukraine as coming from a Russian invasion, I see the threat to them as coming from the clandestine take over by the West. & This started when we decided we didn't like Ukraine's own decision to form closer ties with Russia. Think about that if you believe in self determination. The freely elected government of Ukraine chose to form closer ties with Russia, we might not like it, but it is their decision isn't it? We effect the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and it's not the first time, but part of a pattern of behavior. Doesn't that bother you?

 

[martyn20]

I don't hate Ukrainians, that's not a nice thing to say.

Look, neither of us want anything other than the people of Ukraine to be free and self determined. That is what I am into. So are you I think.

Even the leaders sitting around the UN Security Council are careful to not say that the Rebels brought down the plane because that has not been established. I am aware that a video exists, and just like we might not immediately accept a Russian produced video, nor should we necessarily immediately accept a Ukrainian produced video. It is still refereed to as unverified as far as I am aware.

As I pointed out before there was an accident a few years ago where Russia accidentally shot down a plane. The U.S. lied to make it appear deliberate. Doctored audio intercepts were used at the time.

In 2001 the Ukrainian military denied shooting down a passenger plane, they later had to admit they had done.

I only say this to make you understand that no side can be taken at face value on this, and you are accepting one sides version of events, prejudging one side as honest, and one side as deceitful.

It has been reported that the Rebels have blocked access. It has also been reported that the investigators have been deliberately slow, so as to be able to say they have been impeded. Would that be done so it could be spun to score a propaganda victory? Sadly it's not out of the question.

I do not hate Ukrainians. Do you want to know why there is a genuine issue with Neo Nazis in the new Ukrainian regime? Because when you go in to a country to overthrow the government using force, you need people who are willing to do that. The democratic minded person in Ukraine is going to want to effect change using reason, peacefully. If you want to effect a coup, you need people willing to use force. You end up with thugs, or in this case, Neo Nazis. Ukrainians are not Neo Nazis, but some of the ones we have helped to seize power are.

Read the article, I wasn't saying anything about Ukrainians in general please don't think that. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

I don't know if you accept that the U.S. was involved in the coup, but where you are seeing the threat to the decent people of Ukraine as coming from a Russian invasion, I see the threat to them as coming from the clandestine take over by the West. & This started when we decided we didn't like Ukraine's own decision to form closer ties with Russia. Think about that if you believe in self determination. The freely elected government of Ukraine chose to form closer ties with Russia, we might not like it, but it is there decision isn't it? We effect the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and it's not the first time, but part of a pattern of behavior. Doesn't that bother you?

Can I just confirm something, the old President was in Russia's pocket, he refused to move closer to the West, people protested, he killed them and then fled to Russia for sanctuary. The new President, who was freely elected supported the protesters view, more pro-western.
But having said that your view is that most of the Ukrainian population now want closer ties with Russia, and Russia is just helping them get their wish by supplying arms and training inside their country.

 

[Pickles]

Black boxes have been handed over at a press conference. Just wish the investigators had been able to get them themselves from where they landed, lets hope they are not damaged.

I thought that was the whole idea of a black box? ( Incidentally, they're red ).

 

[martyn20]

I thought that was the whole idea of a black box? ( Incidentally, they're red ).

Black boxes can get damaged during plane crashes and can also get damaged by incorrect handling of them after the crash, too much heat or cold, storage close to metal objects etc. That's why the only people who should remove them from the crash site are the specialists.
Well spotted about the colour

 

[Pickles]

Nicely patrionising.

Cheers.

 

[martyn20]

Nicely patrionising.

Cheers.

Sorry, it's been a tough thread

 

[dingodan]

Can I just confirm something, the old President was in Russia's pocket, he refused to move closer to the West, people protested, he killed them and then fled to Russia for sanctuary. The new President, who was freely elected supported the protesters view, more pro-western.
But having said that your view is that most of the Ukrainian population now want closer ties with Russia, and Russia is just helping them get their wish by supplying arms and training inside their country.

You have a thoroughly one sided view of things. Like I said I have nothing against Ukrainians at all, I'm starting to think you have something against Russians though, which is a shame.

I didn't say most wanted closer ties with Russia, I said the democratic government had chosen closer ties. The U.S. brought about the overthrow of the government, I guess the Ukrainian democracy just made the wrong decision, huh.

 

[martyn20]

You have a thoroughly one sided view of things. Like I said I have nothing against Ukrainians at all, I'm starting to think you have something against Russians though, which is a shame.

I didn't say most wanted closer ties with Russia, I said the democratic government had chosen closer ties. The U.S. brought about the overthrow of the government, I guess the Ukrainian democracy made the wrong decision, huh.

No, not having that, tell me which bit I got wrong in the original post.
Ukrainian democracy made the wrong decision according to who? They voted for closer ties to the West did they not?
I have not used insults so maybe you could try and do the same?

 

[dingodan]

No, not having that, tell me which bit I got wrong in the original post.
Ukrainian democracy made the wrong decision according to who? They voted for closer ties to the West did they not?
I have not used insults so maybe you could try and do the same?

The wrong decision according to the U.S. who brought about a coup.

You are completely ignored most of the points I've made, you carry on the conversation as though you didn't read anything I said.

I'm more than happy to debate things, and I would point out I have only ever been telling you to stop believing only one side of things - the side which has an awful record for telling lies by the way, something you seem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.

You clearly can't see past your own preconceptions which makes this conversation a waste of time.

 

[martyn20]

The wrong decision according to the U.S. who brought about a coup.

You are completely ignored most of the points I've made, you carry on the conversation as though you didn't read anything I said.

I'm more than happy to debate things, and I would point out I have only ever been telling you to stop believing only one side of things - the side which has an awful record for telling lies by the way, something you seem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.

You clearly can't see past your own preconceptions which makes this conversation a waste of time.

Still not answering the question I asked, fine, we are done sir!

 

[dingodan]

Still not answering the question I asked, fine, we are done sir!

You wanted to know what was wrong with your description of the Ukrainian uprising.

If you read my previous posts, and thought about what I had said, you would know what was wrong with it. I gave you good sourced material making my point about the coup being carried out with the help of the U.S., how it happened, why it happened, and who those who we have helped to take power are, and what the consequences of that could end up being.

After all that, you come out and say:

"the old President was in Russia's pocket, he refused to move closer to the West, people protested, he killed them and then fled to Russia for sanctuary. The new President, who was freely elected supported the protesters view, more pro-western."

I brought you water, do you really need me to show you how to drink it too?