Malaysian airline crash

[martyn20]

You wanted to know what was wrong with your description of the Ukrainian uprising.

If you read my previous posts, and thought about what I had said, you would know what was wrong with it. I gave you good sourced material making my point about the coup being carried out with the help of the U.S., how it happened, why it happened, and who those who we have helped to take power are, and what the consequences of that could end up being.

After all that, you come out and say:

"the old President was in Russia's pocket, he refused to move closer to the West, people protested, he killed them and then fled to Russia for sanctuary. The new President, who was freely elected supported the protesters view, more pro-western."

I brought you water, do you really need me to show you how to drink it too?

You also told me Ukraine will be guilty of persecuting the Jews at some point in the future, got any sources that can tell the future.
My explanation was taken from events that actually happened, recently and as part of the current crisis, that's what I choose to judge the current events on, yours are old prejudices and future fears based on those prejudices.
Forget it, as I said before I am done, this is getting nowhere.

 

[dingodan]

You also told me Ukraine will be guilty of persecuting the Jews at some point in the future, got any sources that can tell the future.

I suggested that helping a regime comprised of Neo Nazis could be a threat to the Jewish population of Ukraine, like helping Islamist rebels in Syria has become a threat to the Christian population of Iraq.

I don't want to see people get persecuted. You calling my concerns about Neo Nazis "prejudice" is ill thought out I think.

My explanation was taken from events that actually happened, recently and as part of the current crisis, that's what I choose to judge the current events on

Your explanation was based on what you heard had happened, nothing more than that.

 

[pastafarian]

Sorry, it's been a tough thread

i ran out of pringles around page 20........now thats tough!

 

[beorhthelm]

...The U.S. brought about the overthrow of the government, I guess the Ukrainian democracy just made the wrong decision, huh.

you can keep saying that the US caused the coup, its doesnt make it true. theres an argument that the US assisted, to some degree, in supporting some of those involved in the uprising, but you cannot say that the Ukrainians themselves didnt rise up against an unpopular president who was suppressing freedoms (passed anti demonstration law that was the turned protests in to occupation and riot) and taking them in an unwelcome direction against the mandate upon which he had. you are being rather condensending to believe that a nation cant have a coup without outside influence.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

you can keep saying that the US caused the coup, its doesnt make it true. theres an argument that the US assisted, to some degree, in supporting some of those involved in the uprising, but you cannot say that the Ukrainians themselves didnt rise up against an unpopular president who was suppressing freedoms (passed anti demonstration law that was the turned protests in to occupation and riot) and taking them in an unwelcome direction against the mandate upon which he had. you are being rather condensending to believe that a nation cant have a coup without outside influence.

This.

 

[Czechmate]

Your explanation was based on what you heard had happened, nothing more than that.[/QUOTE]

The best point put forward so far , a one-sided Western view !

 

[Czechmate]

you can keep saying that the US caused the coup, its doesnt make it true. theres an argument that the US assisted, to some degree, in supporting some of those involved in the uprising, but you cannot say that the Ukrainians themselves didnt rise up against an unpopular president who was suppressing freedoms (passed anti demonstration law that was the turned protests in to occupation and riot) and taking them in an unwelcome direction against the mandate upon which he had. you are being rather condensending to believe that a nation cant have a coup without outside influence.

The Western side of Ukraine were involved yes , what about the Eastern side ? no one seem to be bothered what they thought and no politician ever did visit them to find out

 

[drew]

I suggested that helping a regime comprised of Neo Nazis could be a threat to the Jewish population of Ukraine, like helping Islamist rebels in Syria has become a threat to the Christian population of Iraq.

I don't want to see people get persecuted. You calling my concerns about Neo Nazis "prejudice" is ill thought out I think.



Your explanation was based on what you heard had happened, nothing more than that.

As is your explanation. In fact everything you state is the same. Your comments about the Christians in Mosul is the same. You don't know the situation there, you just rely on reports from other people.

But your views on the Malaysian flight are based on reports from a Government that controls the television, that doesn't have free elections. Our media is not controlled by the state. That's the difference. You also seem to believe everything that Putin says. Let's remind us that he blames Ukraine purely on the basis that it happened in their airspace. What a comical statement that is. The fact is that you are a conspirationist so it wouldn't matter if the evidence was starring you in the face, you wouldn't believe it.

As for the so called coup. The President was voted out by his parliament. Hardly a coup d' etat. He was suppose to sign an agreement with the EU and then chose not to do so. Would be like the Queen not ratifying an act of parliament. (yes I know he has more powers but what made him change his mind, possibly a quiet word from Putin!).

Does everyone (other than yourself, of course) believe everything that comes out of America or our Government? Of course not. We have the advantage of a free press and media which regularly challenges the state. Something Russia is bereft of.

However, doesn't matter what I and any others say, you still keep hiding under your tin foil!!

 

[Czechmate]

i'm sure the UN would be fascinated to know they have forces in Poland.

Sorry I meant NATO

 

[drew]

Your explanation was based on what you heard had happened, nothing more than that.

The best point put forward so far , a one-sided Western view ![/QUOTE]

Which press and media has the greater freedoms, Western press or Russian press?

 

[Czechmate]

Not really.

This all started when one student put a post on facebook calling for a protest against Yanukovich not signing the EU association deal he had negotiated.

A few hundred turned up, and instead of just letting it be and eventually fizzle out, Yanukovich made his first mistake by implementing new anti-protest laws, and deploying his Berkut units.

The new laws caused outrage, and many more came out to protest. Yanukovich could still have de-escalated the situation but instead he ordered his Berkut to open fire on his own citizens. Heaven' s Hundred lost their lives, 10s of thousands then marched on Kyiv as a result, and Yanukovich fled.

I admit the Berkut opened fire first but there was a coup going on and the possibility of the parliament being stormed , then they started firing back . The parliament could always vote the President out with two thirds majority but they decided not to and go down the coup route .

Now hundreds of civilians are losing lives in East Ukraine , firing rockets and air strikes on it's own people just like what you said happened in Kiev but more severe . By the way people i know in Ukraine and many were interviewed not so long ago and had no idea what was in the negotiations with the EU .

 

[Czechmate]

The best point put forward so far , a one-sided Western view !

Which press and media has the greater freedoms, Western press or Russian press?[/QUOTE]

Probably the same as someone pointed out earlier with RT and Fox , the only difference is you have to look harder for the Russian press . Calling Putin a murderer and killing someone's sons is freedom of press gone mad , fair enough if it was proved but nothing has been yet .

 

[drew]

Probably the same as someone pointed out earlier with RT and Fox , the only difference is you have to look harder for the Russian press . Calling Putin a murderer and killing someone's sons is freedom of press gone mad , fair enough if it was proved but nothing has been yet .

Probably!!!! Who runs RT? It was a station set up by the Kremlin. Fox news, as distasteful as it usually is, is not run by a government.

 

[dingodan]

As is your explanation. In fact everything you state is the same. Your comments about the Christians in Mosul is the same. You don't know the situation there, you just rely on reports from other people.

But your views on the Malaysian flight are based on reports from a Government that controls the television, that doesn't have free elections. Our media is not controlled by the state. That's the difference. You also seem to believe everything that Putin says. Let's remind us that he blames Ukraine purely on the basis that it happened in their airspace. What a comical statement that is. The fact is that you are a conspirationist so it wouldn't matter if the evidence was starring you in the face, you wouldn't believe it.

As for the so called coup. The President was voted out by his parliament. Hardly a coup d' etat. He was suppose to sign an agreement with the EU and then chose not to do so. Would be like the Queen not ratifying an act of parliament. (yes I know he has more powers but what made him change his mind, possibly a quiet word from Putin!).

Does everyone (other than yourself, of course) believe everything that comes out of America or our Government? Of course not. We have the advantage of a free press and media which regularly challenges the state. Something Russia is bereft of.

However, doesn't matter what I and any others say, you still keep hiding under your tin foil!!

Nothing I had said has been because Russia said it. I take what Russia says with the same amount of salt as I take what the West says. Russia has suggested that it has radar data of Ukrainian military Jets following the plane before the crash. But I'm not going to hold that up as evidence of anything for the same reasons I wouldn't trust the recordings supposedly proving that Rebels did it. Information is being used as a weapon by both side, neither side would admit to being wrong, even if they knew that they were, would never happpen.

Most of what I have said has been sourced, and is by actually reporting by Western journalists (the "free" ones remember). The fact is that I am not taking Russia at face value. Most of you are taking the West at face value, and you are wrong to.

"It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis." - Nobel Prize Laureate, Harold Pinter
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html

If you are interested in understanding how The U.S. brings about a coup, check out John Perkins, who wrote Confessions of an Economic Hitman.



If you are interested in the situation in Ukraine, I would recommend at least hearing both sides.

John Pilger IS an unbiased journalist, that's the benefit of being independent. I don't see why he would have bias towards Russia, he is a Westerner and he speaks for himself not for any government.

This interview was a month before the plane crash. Yes it's RT, and yes they only have him on because he is critical of the West. If he was critical of Russia RT would not have him on for an interview...And the BBC would instead, which they don't today, because he is critical of the West. Try to understand what I am saying.



Also, [MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION] check out his work on Palestine, you would probably find it interesting.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Nothing I had said has been because Russia said it. I take what Russia says with the same amount of salt as I take what the West says. Russia has suggested that it has radar data of Ukrainian military Jets following the plane before the crash. But I'm not going to hold that up as evidence of anything for the same reasons I wouldn't trust the recordings supposedly proving that Rebels did it. Information is being used as a weapon by both side, neither side would admit to being wrong, even if they knew that they were, would never happpen.

Most of what I have said has been sourced, and is by actually reporting by Western journalists (the "free" ones remember). The fact is that I am not taking Russia at face value. Most of you are taking the West at face value, and you are wrong to.

"It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis." - Nobel Prize Laureate, Harold Pinter
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html

If you are interested in understanding how The U.S. brings about a coup, check out John Perkins, who wrote Confessions of an Economic Hitman.



If you are interested in the situation in Ukraine, I would recommend at least hearing both sides.

John Pilger IS an unbiased journalist, that's the benefit of being independent. I don't see why he would have bias towards Russia, he is a Westerner and he speaks for himself not for any government.

This interview was a month before the plane crash. Yes it's RT, and yes they only have him on because he is critical of the West. If he was critical of Russia RT would not have him on for an interview...And the BBC would instead, which they don't today, because he is critical of the West. Try to understand what I am saying.



Also, [MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION] check out his work on Palestine, you would probably find it interesting.

Get a life you sad git.

 

[Buzzer]

John Pilger IS an unbiased journalist

Hahahahahahahahaha! That's a good 'un. I'll give you that.

I suggest you look up the word 'pilgerism' for just how independent a journalist he really is. His default position is ALWAYS anti-US, anti-Western liberalism. The man seethes with hatred for all things American. He always has done.

 

[dingodan]

Hahahahahahahahaha! That's a good 'un. I'll give you that.

I suggest you look up the word 'pilgerism' for just how independent a journalist he really is. His default position is ALWAYS anti-US, anti-Western liberalism. The man seethes with hatred for all things American. He always has done.

There isn't a good journo out there who doesn't get attacked for what they report. Because good journalism usually offends and upsets, the adage that "the truth hurts" comes to mind.

That's why most journalists engage in easy, lazy journalism, people are much easier on you.

If the guy has some kind of hidden agenda, I'd like to hear where you imagine it comes from. The man's life has been as an experienced war correspondent, that's what he does, he reports on conflict, his usual aim is to bring light on the plight and suffering of the down trodden and innocent victims of war. In doing that kind of reporting, you might note a strong condemnation of the U.S. in almost all of his reporting.

Now you can look at that one of two ways, can't you. Should we take from this that we out to question U.S. foreign policy? or should we take from this that we should question the integrity of the journalist?

It really is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it.

 

[Buzzer]

There isn't a good journo out there who doesn't get attacked for what they report.

Yes, but there's not many that get a word named after them to describe their appallingly consistent bias. Pilger isn't just known for it, he's the benchmark. The man could bot write an unbiased piece about Western values if his life depended on it, he's so mired in his own prejudices.

Christopher Hitchens on Pilger: "...here is a word that gets overused and can be misused – namely, anti-American – and it has to be used about him."

And in reference to a piece Pilger wrote about the US having a hand in precipitating the uprising in Ukraine he made a big thing of quoting a bogus interview with a totally made-up Jewish doctor who claimed neo-nazis were behind demonstrations.

http://www.rferl.org/content/guardian-op-ed-quotes-cryptic-odesa-doctor-seen-as-hoax/25385076.html


Pilger is not unbiased. He never has been. He never will be.

 

[Buzzer]

If the guy has some kind of hidden agenda, I'd like to hear where you imagine it comes from. .

His agenda isn't hidden. It's always been very obvious. America is the root of all evil - to the point that he writes sycophantic articles about anyone who opposes his bete noire.

 

[El Presidente]

His agenda isn't hidden. It's always been very obvious. America is the root of all evil - to the point that he writes sycophantic articles about anyone who opposes his bete noire.

I think Pilger and George Galloway would make a lovely couple.