Malaysian airline crash

[Czechmate]

yes my wife and all my in law are in that category, and categorically they can see events for what they are. My father in law is a proud ex soviet army vet, who misses the soviet union days, speaks russian, but does not want to come under Putins rule. Putin is not interested in Russian speakers or Eastern Ukrainians, he is hell bent on russian expansionism and hell bent on preventing little old subservient ukraine from moving out of his control towards the west.

You'd be suprised that there are no outlets where guns can be bought in Ukraine, but suddenly all of these rebels, who have control of a border crossing have them. Russian citizens fighting in ukraine is a FACT, some military officers, others like the hordes of Russian cossaks coming across the border as general tourists before it all kicked off and then linking up with the DNR military commanders. the DNR have 1 recruiting office and its in Moscow, yes there are some locals who fight and some local support, but really every family member and friend i know there all wants it to stop and doesn't support the DNR, any volunteer is paid double what you can earn in a factory for as long as they remain alive..... did you know they did a general amnesty of all prisons in their controlled areas, if a prisoner fights for the DNR?

my wifes best friend Marina, was on a bus around 2 weeks ago from Donetsk to Mariupol that was stopped, and the DNR reps forced 3 young men off the bus to fight for the DNR at gunpoint, she said their was a couple in 30's or so with a young kid and they dtried to take the bloke, but the woman starting screaming hysterically that he was the only bread winner and they would starve without him so they let him go.

This isn't about being anti russia, i love russia, culture, am learning language have travelled across it and have russian friends this about what is really happening in one region of russian speaking east ukraine beyond what you read, its Putins dirty war on Ukraine.

Ukraine potentially joining NATO/EU?
Putin's grand vision of his "Eurasion union" soviet UNION PT 2 being scuppered by its second biggest potential economy ukraine moving westwards?
Risks to his government of Russian citizens seeing first hand Ukraine moving from corrupt autocracy to rule of law democracy?
Losing control over a subservient satellite?
Other?

who knows the reasons, but this is not a local ukrainian led popular uprising

I will reply to your reasonable letter soon because busy with work for a few days , but I know for a fact people in Ukraine as well as Russia have always had weapons at home , just look , before this all started on VK which is the Ukraine /Russian equivalent of Facebook and a very vast majority of men are proud of showing photo's of themselves with pistols , machine guns and heavier equipment .

 

[dingodan]

This is, purportedly a local Russian speaking Militia. Is it really? I don't know.

What is interesting, is that this video was posted on 18 June 2014.

In the video she talks of an episode in which a Ukrainian Military jet flew behind a commercial airliner, then dropped to a lower altitude, bombed an area and then returned to behind the airliner again.

She says, "They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot down the passenger plane. There would have been a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died."

Again, this was posted on Youtube more than a month before the crash of MH17.

 

[Czechmate]

Youre not wrong about a divided country, my Mrs mate whom i mentioned above just 3 months ago, wanted to join Russia, hated Kiev and now events have led to somewhat of a damascus road........... One of first things rebels have done in every conquered area has been to turning off all ukrainian TV to be replaced by russian only, and then follows the barrage of misinformation which shapes minds.

i just care about those very poor and abused family caught up in a power struggle, and whilst they are naturally suspicious of the west and love russian culture/language, they all want peace and normality more than anything and not this shit........

I agree with that , the people I know in Dnepropetrovsk and Odessa and even Donetsk for the short time I was there were happy enough as things were before all this change although they would've liked closer ties with Europe some of them and some not . Blimey it was not so long ago I was sleeping at Donetsk Railway station waiting for a train to Dnepropetrovsk in the morning for the Euro's , now I see tanks rolling up the road , so sad !

 

[Czechmate]

That appears to imply that anyone who can't speak Ukrainian or don't have Ukrainian as their first language aren't citizens of the Ukraine!

I thought the languages were very similar , not a lot of difference and also very similar to Czech which helped me . My friends told me to learn Russian as 99% of people would understand it anyway .

 

[Czechmate]

BREAKING NEWS: Ukraine cabinet, including Prime Minister, resigns, citing collapse of coalition and "blocking of government initiatives".CNN

From @PzFeed on twitter

Oh dear , I didn't know , will listen to the news soon , I never liked the Prime Minister I must admit , he always seemed to talk without thinking , I hope someone will now be elected that is a bit more diplomatic and sort this mess out.

 

[peterward]

Alexander khodakovsky - prior to the annexation of Crimea was the commander of the Alpha Special Unit of the Security Service of Ukraine - defected and became commander of the pro-Russian Vostok Battalion. Ukrainian Citizen? Or does Ukraine promote non-citizens to such high miltary posts?

Denis Pushilin - previously stood as a Parliamentary candidate in the Ukrainian elections of 2012 and 2013 - winning less than 1% of the vote! - is the self declared Speaker of the Parliament of the Donetsk People's Republic. Can non-citizens stand in Ukrainian Parliamentary elections?

Alexander Borodai - Prime minister of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' - Russian citizen whose only link to Ukraine was as political advisor to Sergey Aksyonov.

Sergey Aksyonov - Appointed as Prime Minister of Crimea - Born in Moldova but moved to Ukraine when he was 17, 27 years ago. Deputy director of the Eskada Company and the head of the Crimea's Greco-Roman Wrestling organisation.

Those were the first four names I found when I Googled 'Ukrainian Rebel Leaders'. Whilst Alexander Borodai certainly matches your assessment of the political and military leaders of the 'rebels' I don't see how the other three do.

khodakovsy is a russian crimean (there are many Crimeans who held russian passports prior to annexation, and russia will give any Ukrainian a russian passport who wants one, its illegal to hold dual nationality for ukrainians), he served in the Russian military and is a russian citizen (he btw is the one who yesterday admitted the DNR did have BUK's)

Denis Pushilin, interesting character, WAS one of the few actual ukrainians in the DNR leadership who was born in Ukraine and served in the ukrainian army, convicted fraudster who diddled £1000's out of victims in Ponzi schemes..... he has been purged/removed from the leadership and is no more...... there were a few Ukrainians at the outset, but more recently they have all been purged and replaced by Russians.


Sergey Aksyonov (the infamous Goblin) not exactly related to the events now in eastern Ukraine - he's Putins crimean Puppet - Born into the Moldovan SSR of Russian father and origin, moved to Crimea when it was the Ukrainian SSR before independence. A known gangster and criminal boss, was in the crimean parliment with his russian unity party, that scored less than 4% of votes in 2010 election, however with all the crimean rada forced at gunpoint into a closed door session with armed gunman at the doors, they had a vote of no confidence in elected coalition government and he was voted leader in a "do or die" vote...... he then demanded joining Russia and a referendum

http://time.com/19097/putin-crimea-russia-ukraine-aksyonov/

next?

 

[peterward]

Oh dear , I didn't know , will listen to the news soon , I never liked the Prime Minister I must admit , he always seemed to talk without thinking , I hope someone will now be elected that is a bit more diplomatic and sort this mess out.

wether its true or not? I read it was a tactical decision and President Poroshenko is endorsing it, there are still loads of the ex presidents party of regions mps in the parliament + the communists, all of these are allegedly kowtowing to the russian agenda and undermining/frustrating what the ukraine government try and do in the east, the government did though have a working majority coalition.

the government coalition mps voted through further increase in army conscription numbers into law a couple of days ago, and the pro russian mps who tried to stop them started a huge brawl/fist fight.

Now 2 of the main parties in the government coalition including Klitchko's UDAR have stood down from the coaltion, which will trigger fresh elections.

wether its true or not they are dressing this up as a chance for people to vote in new mps since the president was elected and to purge the government of mps who only follow Moscows agenda??

not sure i believe it

lets see what happens next

 

[Creaky]

khodakovsy is a russian crimean (there are many Crimeans who held russian passports prior to annexation, and russia will give any Ukrainian a russian passport who wants one, its illegal to hold dual nationality for ukrainians), he served in the Russian military and is a russian citizen (he btw is the one who yesterday admitted the DNR did have BUK's)

If as you say it is illegal to hold dual nationality then which nationality was he when he served as a commander in the Ukranian Security Service? Is he a Ukrainian citizen or not?

Denis Pushilin, interesting character, WAS one of the few actual ukrainians in the DNR leadership who was born in Ukraine and served in the ukrainian army, convicted fraudster who diddled £1000's out of victims in Ponzi schemes..... he has been purged/removed from the leadership and is no more...... there were a few Ukrainians at the outset, but more recently they have all been purged and replaced by Russians.

I didn't know that - who has taken his position?

Sergey Aksyonov (the infamous Goblin) not exactly related to the events now in eastern Ukraine - he's Putins crimean Puppet - Born into the Moldovan SSR of Russian father and origin, moved to Crimea when it was the Ukrainian SSR before independence. A known gangster and criminal boss, was in the crimean parliment with his russian unity party, that scored less than 4% of votes in 2010 election, however with all the crimean rada forced at gunpoint into a closed door session with armed gunman at the doors, they had a vote of no confidence in elected coalition government and he was voted leader in a "do or die" vote...... he then demanded joining Russia and a referendum
http://time.com/19097/putin-crimea-russia-ukraine-aksyonov/

next?

So as a member of the Crimean Parliament he was/is presumably a Ukrainian citizen - you may not like his politics nor his 'alliance' with Russia but if he is a Ukranian citizen then he doesn't match your earlier description that ALL the rebels leaders, political and military are Russian.

I make that 2 out of 3 of the 'leaders' identified as Ukrainian assuming Pushilin is no longer involved.

Ultimately the only solution will be a political one and not a military one - probably partition as in Korea, Ireland, India/Pakistan, Pakistan/Bangladesh, China/Taiwan, Austria/Hungary etc.

 

[Czechmate]

wether its true or not? I read it was a tactical decision and President Poroshenko is endorsing it, there are still loads of the ex presidents party of regions mps in the parliament + the communists, all of these are allegedly kowtowing to the russian agenda and undermining/frustrating what the ukraine government try and do in the east, the government did though have a working majority coalition.

the government coalition mps voted through further increase in army conscription numbers into law a couple of days ago, and the pro russian mps who tried to stop them started a huge brawl/fist fight.

Now 2 of the main parties in the government coalition including Klitchko's UDAR have stood down from the coaltion, which will trigger fresh elections.

wether its true or not they are dressing this up as a chance for people to vote in new mps since the president was elected and to purge the government of mps who only follow Moscows agenda??

not sure i believe it

lets see what happens next

Quite , it was just unbelievable when the Prime Minister was voted in , his first visits were to European leaders and the White House , I don't think he or any of his parliament bothered about visiting Crimea or East Ukraine when they came to power to get the thoughts of these people before what unfortunately happened , but went to places like Lviv and Odessa .

The Klitchko part of it was obvious , I couldn't believe what I was hearing from a tape recording from a US government official to a Ukraine government official that Klitchko must step down , he is not the right person and has no political experience , which is obviously true , but for the US to call the shots was just amazing .

Lets hope they sort it out and peace comes eventually , but they must stop fighting and talk , I mean both sides.

 

[Czechmate]

wether its true or not? I read it was a tactical decision and President Poroshenko is endorsing it, there are still loads of the ex presidents party of regions mps in the parliament + the communists, all of these are allegedly kowtowing to the russian agenda and undermining/frustrating what the ukraine government try and do in the east, the government did though have a working majority coalition.

the government coalition mps voted through further increase in army conscription numbers into law a couple of days ago, and the pro russian mps who tried to stop them started a huge brawl/fist fight.

Now 2 of the main parties in the government coalition including Klitchko's UDAR have stood down from the coaltion, which will trigger fresh elections.

wether its true or not they are dressing this up as a chance for people to vote in new mps since the president was elected and to purge the government of mps who only follow Moscows agenda??

not sure i believe it

lets see what happens next

Yes I know about the fist fight , I am sure the right wing Ukrainian lot were heavily involved too .

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

If as you say it is illegal to hold dual nationality then which nationality was he when he served as a commander in the Ukranian Security Service? Is he a Ukrainian citizen or not?




I didn't know that - who has taken his position?



So as a member of the Crimean Parliament he was/is presumably a Ukrainian citizen - you may not like his politics nor his 'alliance' with Russia but if he is a Ukranian citizen then he doesn't match your earlier description that ALL the rebels leaders, political and military are Russian.

I make that 2 out of 3 of the 'leaders' identified as Ukrainian assuming Pushilin is no longer involved.

Ultimately the only solution will be a political one and not a military one - probably partition as in Korea, Ireland, India/Pakistan, Pakistan/Bangladesh, China/Taiwan, Austria/Hungary etc.

I thought the overall rebel leader that calls all the shots is Strelkov ? He's russian isn't he ?

 

[martyn20]

BREAKING NEWS: U.S. says it has evidence Russian artillery is firing across border to attack Ukrainian military. - StateDept

From @PzFeed on twitter

I will post details when it is released by the US government. I am posting this but not saying it is fact, true or totally accurate, I am just reposting it at this point

 

[peterward]

If as you say it is illegal to hold dual nationality then which nationality was he when he served as a commander in the Ukranian Security Service? Is he a Ukrainian citizen or not?




I didn't know that - who has taken his position?



So as a member of the Crimean Parliament he was/is presumably a Ukrainian citizen - you may not like his politics nor his 'alliance' with Russia but if he is a Ukranian citizen then he doesn't match your earlier description that ALL the rebels leaders, political and military are Russian.

I make that 2 out of 3 of the 'leaders' identified as Ukrainian assuming Pushilin is no longer involved.

Ultimately the only solution will be a political one and not a military one - probably partition as in Korea, Ireland, India/Pakistan, Pakistan/Bangladesh, China/Taiwan, Austria/Hungary etc.

Aksyenov is not related to the struggles in the east, the crimea thing is done and dusted, he's putins crimean puppet.

Both Aksyenov and Khodakovsky hail from Crimea, which is now russian (illegally) and previously was an autonomous region to the rest of Ukraine, it had its own laws/rules/parliament it was not part of the Verkovna rada (parliament in kiev) and was run separately....... was dual nationality allowed for those in autonomous region of crimea? for Russians and Ukrainians? i have no idea, but I guess it may have been as there were plenty of Russians in Crimea..... Crimea (when part of Ukraine) was like Gibraltar or Jersey is to mainland Britain.

residents on Ukrainian soil populated many high positions, Khodakovsy was a russian military officer before rising in the Ukrainian SBU (equivalent of KGB). It may seem strange now, but until 25 years ago it was all USSR, even since independence almost all presidents and the country have been pro moscow (yuschenko aside), its written that many russians have populated the Ukrainian security services as maybe? Americans do ours?, they were complicit partners for generations...... Kodakovsky was working for the ukrainian state but under a pro moscow leader in a pro moscow security service, when the populice threw them out, he defected to the the russian led DNR. Though Kodakovsky heads one battalion - vostok, the military side of the DNR, its commander Igor Girkin and his deputies that orchestrate events are russian military officers.

 

[peterward]

From @PzFeed on twitter

I will post details when it is released by the US government. I am posting this but not saying it is fact, true or totally accurate, I am just reposting it at this point

saw it hours ago!! russian soldiers even bragging about it on VK http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/attacks-continue-on-ukraine-from-russian-territory-357749.html

 

[peterward]

Yes I know about the fist fight , I am sure the right wing Ukrainian lot were heavily involved too .

they were Svoboda v's Party of Regions, about as much love as brighton palace

 

[Creaky]

Lets hope they sort it out and peace comes eventually , but they must stop fighting and talk , I mean both sides.

Absolutely.

There has to be a compromise solution eventually which will only come about around a table - the longer the fighting goes on the more the ordinary citizens will suffer.

 

[dingodan]

"Nothing we have seen suggests any reason to doubt that there is artillery fire coming from the Russian Federation’s territory into Ukraine."

- George Orwell.

...Sorry, I mean Daniel B. Baer, Ambassador to the Permanent Council, OSCE.

 

[dingodan]

The BBC are starting to cover the civilian casualties in Eastern Ukraine, that's something at least.

 

[dingodan]

[MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION] & [MENTION=15046]peterward[/MENTION]

(Donetsk) – Unguided Grad rockets launched apparently by Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias have killed at least 16 civilians and wounded many more in insurgent-controlled areas of Donetsk and its suburbs in at least four attacks between July 12 and 21, 2014, Human Rights Watch said today.

The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians

Human Rights Watch on the ground investigating:

 

[dingodan]

If you look closely at the minute by minute account of the day, there is this:

15:29:

Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28360784