[Politics] Lib Dem leadership contest.

[blue-shifted]

I'm not sure it has veered to the right. There's support for Brexit but I'm not convinced there's a massive shift otherwise

Just had a look at the latest YouGov polls on capital punishment. There's a bare majority in favour of support for capital punishment for terrorism and child murder but not for murder of a police officer.

There's been no sustained debate about this though, I think if there was a serious debate about it, that would swing

One of the main reasons why the death penalty was abolished was not a moral one but because there was a reluctance among jurors to find defendants guilty. That is going to intensify.

If I were on a jury, I would automatically find a prisoner not guilty if he or she were facing the death penalty (and that's something I've seen from many people). If just three people felt like that on every jury, the legal system would grind to a halt. Lawyers know this, which is why there's so little support from the legal profession for capital punishment.

And that's before we start talking about the possiblility of innocent people being hanged ...

That's one perfectly sensible reason (amongst lots of others) that the death penalty shouldn't be reintroduced. But we're talking about could it be reintroduced, not should it. In my mind the answer is we surely have to take nothing for granted. Brexit was just a loony minority cause a decade ago ( some might say it became a loony majority cause 4 years ago) and populists and the right wing press changed people's minds. The next 10 to 20 years will be tough, very tough. Massive numbers will be out of work or in insecure employment and this will be fertile territory for the Farage's of the future to exploit.

And the UK hasn't veered to the right? Hmm. Have a quick look at the cabinet we elected a few months back

 

[Braggfan]

I speak as a Lib Dem voter and party member.

Both Ed Davey and Layla Moran are excellent candidates - both better than former leaders Tim Farron and Jo Swinson. However, it is now crystal clear that as long as the UK persists with a First Past The Post Parliamentary election system the Lib Dems will be screwed and - ultimately - the cause of the Left will be screwed.

Let's be clear about this. The common perception is that the Lib Dems occupy the centre ground, but in reality their core policies and party DNA is left of centre. There is virtually no difference between their policies and those supported by the right of the Labour Party, which is why it was so easy for Chuka Umunna to switch parties. He could see the Lib Dems - post-Clegg - returning to their left of centre core while his own Labour Party was lurching to the left under Corbyn / Momentum.

The issue for me as a voter is that Labour finally have a leader that I believe will be good for this country and deliver many of the things Lib Dems hold dear. Personally, I would like to see the Socialists form their own party and for Labour and Lib Dems to merge into a 'Democrat-style' left of centre party that I feel will have the broad electoral appeal to really threaten the Tories. Alas, I feel that won't come quickly enough to save the break-up of the UK, but I think it will come in time.

It is with regret that I will shortly be cancelling my Lib Dem membership because the bigger picture is in this two-party state we live in a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Tories.

I think it's been very clear for a long long time that the voting system works for two parties and both are reluctant to give up that up. In my life time voting change has been almost the "holy grail" of lib dem politics and understandably so.

But what I can't reconcile at all, is that when they had the chance to change it they passed. And for me that's unforgivable.

If a party doesn't have the conviction to get behind it's own beliefs and change its future how can I expect them to do me any favours.

I don't dislike or hate the Lib Dems, and some of their policies I agree with. I just can't get past their missed opportunity. Which is a shame because this country would be far better off with more choices and options than the polarised society its become.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Agree with all of that - except Capital Punishment. Life should be life, but disagree on Death Penalty

There would of course be very different pinions on a 'Fair Tax' system and 'Fair Benefits system'

Indeed. The vast majority of the country, silent or not, wants a fair tax, benefits and immigration system and the respectful treatment of our elderly. The difference comes in what that consists of and how you get there. It's the whole point of party politics.

As for capital punishment no thanks to another devisive and expensive referendum. The country is and should be goverend by parrty politics and not referenda. We're not Switzerland. The only people who'd want this are the Russians and possibly their poodle, Farage.

Nor is capital punishment a want of the "silent majorty". The old joke applies. How do you know someone's in favour of bringing back hanging? Wait 10 minutes and they'll tell you themselves. In this respect, and this respect only, there's a lot in common with militant vegans.

That doesn't mean criminals should have an easy ride. Agree 100% that life means life. Chuck away the key and let them have a thoroughly miserable time, only don't ever rule out an appeal. "The Secret Barrister" should be compulsory reading for anyone who wants to voice an opinion on our justice system.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

we're being led, advised and swayed by extremely right wing people.

that's because flakey liberalism has been destroyed, i think you better get used to that idea and welcome to the real world
regards
DF

 

[Guinness Boy]

A scale which goes up right across the wage spectrum with the low wage earners paying 15% right up to the top wage earners paying 50%, corporation tax should be transparent, which all the loop holes and fiddles stopped and be a set sliding scale for all companies operating the UK.

Immigration rights should apply to people who already have family living here as UK citizens, or as in the case of Australia and other countries, open for people who can add something to the fabric of our society. Morally we are duty bound to except some people who are fleeing oppressive regimes, but only our fair share, the issue needs addressing right across the free and democratic countries of Europe, not just having the UK as the final destination.

Benefits should be just that, there to benefit all who need it, but just not a hand out. Maybe a basic living wage of £15,000 should be introduced, and people who work for less than that get their money topped up by the state, but people who refuse to work when they can should get the bare minimum.

We need to get a basic work ethic back into this country, which will be easier said than done post covid.

Its something that's stayed with me for over a decade when my boys team was Under 14 one of the Dads lost his job and got offered a job that was only £45 a week more than what his benefits would have been, but he took it and told us all after a game once he did so because he wanted to have his 4 children see him go out to work everyday.

I still believe his attitude back then is still prevalent amongst most people today.

I think this all ties together. I agree with you particularly on the bolded stuff. I've perhaps been lucky but I've only been unemployed for three months since I was 13 (I'm in my late 40s) and my wife has always worked. We want to and do instill this in our kids. My concern is the availability of jobs for them as eldest is heading towards GCSEs.

The rest is a bit chicken and egg. We currently need immigrants to do the jobs that many UK nationals don't seem to want to do. Is nursing going to appeal post covid? Will be interesting to see just how the crop picking season went (I read stories in lockdown of plane loads of Bulgarians coming over for this - no idea how true it is. Would make an interesting article / TV programme).

The really interesting thing is that I don't really disagree with a lot of that, and yet I reckon you and I would vote differently. Just like with the Albion in the 90s we may have more we agree on than don't - which reinforces my point about not wanting another national referendum on anything for a very long time.

 

[Gwylan]

That's one perfectly sensible reason (amongst lots of others) that the death penalty shouldn't be reintroduced. But we're talking about could it be reintroduced, not should it. In my mind the answer is we surely have to take nothing for granted. Brexit was just a loony minority cause a decade ago ( some might say it became a loony majority cause 4 years ago) and populists and the right wing press changed people's minds.

That's all very true but there's a big difference between Brexit and capital punishment. Right wing newspaper owners were very much in favour of Brexit, because it suited their financial interests, and their papers reflected that view. I'm not sure those owners are massively, personally bothered about capital punishment (or are against it, Rupert Murdoch was a prime mover in the campaign to get capital punishment abolished in Australia)

 

[Guinness Boy]

that's because flakey liberalism has been destroyed, i think you better get used to that idea and welcome to the real world
regards
DF

Flakey liberalism like every Premier League player replacing their name on their shirt with "Black Lives Matter" and taking the knee? Having women present and commentate on sport? Having news programmes like Channel 4 News that are truly intelligent and independant? Cycle lanes? Popular vegan restaurants? That flakey liberalism?

 

[nwgull]

You really think youngsters have got enough money to put into their pensions? Forget Brexit for a minute and look at what youngsters have got in front of them? They don't all go to university.

I think we're in agreement that Brexit will cost the country money, and that that will have to be paid for somehow. Youngsters will have even less money to put into their pensions if the basic rate of tax is increased.

 

[BLOCK F]

This ^

I always maintained that even though Corbyn was an incompetent and unappealing leader, many of his policies would be considered mainstream centre-Left in much of Europe - some nationalisation, slightly higher tax on the rich, and a couple of workers on the boards of companies to have a small say in the decisions (which affect them) and improve democracy in the workplace.

Germany has a state-owned railway and worker-directors, for example, yet their leader, Merkel, is a Conservative (Christian Democrat).

The fact that these policies were portrayed as Communist in Britain shows have far to the Right we have moved, certainly on economic issues. It also shows just how powerful much of the press is in defining what is 'acceptable' or 'extremist': the extent to which so many people take their political cues and views from rabidly pro-Conservative papers like the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, Daily Telegraph, and The Times is astonishing and depressing - and then (without any irony) they'll complain about Left-wing bias in the media and people being indoctrinated or brainwashed!

Most of our national newspapers are owned by billionaire business-men who are naturally hostile to any form of socialism, and so they convince their readers that any policies to tackle poverty, clamp-down on corporate tax-dodging, stop the selling-off of public services to private firms (who are often donors to the Conservative party), tackle homelessness and unaffordable housing, and slightly improve workers' rights or democracy in the workplace, are the work of the Devil, and will turn us into a basket-case like North Korea.

The Times is hardly a 'rabid pro Conservative paper'.
Yes, it is certainly to the right rather than the left, but is generally pretty centrist and hasn't held back in having a go at the Conservatives when they have deserved it.
Prior to the election, they were certainly anti Corbyn, but then again so were plenty of others and for good reason. Should Sir Keir Starmer make a decent fist of leading the Labour party and come up with policies that are sensible and desirable, then I am sure he will be given a very fair hearing by the Times rather than a 'rabid pro Tory bashing.'

 

[Lenny Rider]

I think this all ties together. I agree with you particularly on the bolded stuff. I've perhaps been lucky but I've only been unemployed for three months since I was 13 (I'm in my late 40s) and my wife has always worked. We want to and do instill this in our kids. My concern is the availability of jobs for them as eldest is heading towards GCSEs.

The rest is a bit chicken and egg. We currently need immigrants to do the jobs that many UK nationals don't seem to want to do. Is nursing going to appeal post covid? Will be interesting to see just how the crop picking season went (I read stories in lockdown of plane loads of Bulgarians coming over for this - no idea how true it is. Would make an interesting article / TV programme).

The really interesting thing is that I don't really disagree with a lot of that, and yet I reckon you and I would vote differently. Just like with the Albion in the 90s we may have more we agree on than don't - which reinforces my point about not wanting another national referendum on anything for a very long time.

In the 1990's I ended up seeing two John Baine gigs, speaks volumes about the sacrifices we all had to make....

 

[nwgull]

I'm in the middle gound age wise, have a nice home in a good area by many standards and a sizable mortgage still . . . . have worked continually nearly 33 years since I was 16, have F**K ALL pension . . . . just a collection of cars/bikes/guitars. I will in all probability still be working when I die. Apparently we're the JAM generation, not only fans of the band but just about managing. as a family we're well above average income, and do not have a lavish lifestyle/holidays flash cars etc . . . . god knows how ohter people fund their lifestyles.

There will of course be people who suffer however the deficit is paid for, and many of those will have voted remain - something like 35% of over 60s. I'm mid 40s, so somewhere in between, but I just get pissed off whenever I see one of Farage's Brexit rallies or events and the demographic is nearly all old folk, most of whom won't be affected by the shit storm.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

In the 1990's I ended up seeing two John Baine gigs, speaks volumes about the sacrifices we all had to make....

Thank You For Your Service

 

[beorhthelm]

I speak as a Lib Dem voter and party member.

Both Ed Davey and Layla Moran are excellent candidates - both better than former leaders Tim Farron and Jo Swinson. However, it is now crystal clear that as long as the UK persists with a First Past The Post Parliamentary election system the Lib Dems will be screwed and - ultimately - the cause of the Left will be screwed.

Labour managed to establish themselves under FPTP, why is it that Liberals can retake their place as the main party of centre left?

 

[Lenny Rider]

Thank You For Your Service

And I bought his book of poetry.

 

[BLOCK F]

I think this all ties together. I agree with you particularly on the bolded stuff. I've perhaps been lucky but I've only been unemployed for three months since I was 13 (I'm in my late 40s) and my wife has always worked. We want to and do instill this in our kids. My concern is the availability of jobs for them as eldest is heading towards GCSEs.

The rest is a bit chicken and egg. We currently need immigrants to do the jobs that many UK nationals don't seem to want to do. Is nursing going to appeal post covid? Will be interesting to see just how the crop picking season went (I read stories in lockdown of plane loads of Bulgarians coming over for this - no idea how true it is. Would make an interesting article / TV programme).

The really interesting thing is that I don't really disagree with a lot of that, and yet I reckon you and I would vote differently. Just like with the Albion in the 90s we may have more we agree on than don't - which reinforces my point about not wanting another national referendum on anything for a very long time.

I understand there has been a substantial surge in the interest in careers in medicine and nursing since the covid pandemic.
I have seen this discussed on telly and there is quite a bit about it on t'internet.
Not so sure the same applies to crop picking though! Apparently, the British workers who have signed up for the task this year are, on the whole, willing workers but unsurprisingly their productivity is somewhat below that of the foreign workers whose expertise is being sorely missed.

 

[blue-shifted]

I think we're in agreement that Brexit will cost the country money, and that that will have to be paid for somehow. Youngsters will have even less money to put into their pensions if the basic rate of tax is increased.

Or if they have no prospect of getting a secure job or escaping a life of exhorbitant rents

 

[Guinness Boy]

I understand there has been a substantial surge in the interest in careers in medicine and nursing since the covid pandemic.
I have seen this discussed on telly and there is quite a bit about it on t'internet.

That's great if true

Not so sure the same applies to crop picking though! Apparently, the British workers who have signed up for the task this year are, on the whole, willing workers but unsurprisingly their productivity is somewhat below that of the foreign workers whose expertise is being sorely missed.

And that's not unexpected. But if we have to extend points in any points based system to fruit pickers or (say) cleaners or chamber maids then surely we'd end up where we are today? Maybe they'd end up Fillipino instead of Eastern European?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Indeed. The vast majority of the country, silent or not, wants a fair tax, benefits and immigration system and the respectful treatment of our elderly. The difference comes in what that consists of and how you get there. It's the whole point of party politics.

As for capital punishment no thanks to another devisive and expensive referendum. The country is and should be goverend by parrty politics and not referenda. We're not Switzerland. The only people who'd want this are the Russians and possibly their poodle, Farage.

Nor is capital punishment a want of the "silent majorty". The old joke applies. How do you know someone's in favour of bringing back hanging? Wait 10 minutes and they'll tell you themselves. In this respect, and this respect only, there's a lot in common with militant vegans.

That doesn't mean criminals should have an easy ride. Agree 100% that life means life. Chuck away the key and let them have a thoroughly miserable time, only don't ever rule out an appeal. "The Secret Barrister" should be compulsory reading for anyone who wants to voice an opinion on our justice system.

Agree 100% with all that.

I hate the 'eye for an eye' brigade. That's what draws goons into ISIS and the like.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Immigration rights should apply to people who already have family living here as UK citizens, or as in the case of Australia and other countries, open for people who can add something to the fabric of our society. Morally we are duty bound to except some people who are fleeing oppressive regimes, but only our fair share, the issue needs addressing right across the free and democratic countries of Europe, not just having the UK as the final destination.

Benefits should be just that, there to benefit all who need it, but just not a hand out. Maybe a basic living wage of £15,000 should be introduced, and people who work for less than that get their money topped up by the state, but people who refuse to work when they can should get the bare minimum.


Its something that's stayed with me for over a decade when my boys team was Under 14 one of the Dads lost his job and got offered a job that was only £45 a week more than what his benefits would have been, but he took it and told us all after a game once he did so because he wanted to have his 4 children see him go out to work everyday.

I still believe his attitude back then is still prevalent amongst most people today.

The UK has 0.1% of all refugees but to read the media you would think we are being 'swamped' and 'invaded'. Both of which are highly emotive words.

The vast majority of people on benefits are working, although this government counts pensioners as being on benefits. I agree there should be a living wage but there should also be a cap on rents. A small three bedroomed terrace house in Newhaven costs over £1000 a month to rent.
You say the Dad got £45 a week more than his benefits, I have known a family get more in benefits than working because the wages were so low. Zero hours contracts will only add to that.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I think it's been very clear for a long long time that the voting system works for two parties and both are reluctant to give up that up. In my life time voting change has been almost the "holy grail" of lib dem politics and understandably so.

But what I can't reconcile at all, is that when they had the chance to change it they passed. And for me that's unforgivable.

If a party doesn't have the conviction to get behind it's own beliefs and change its future how can I expect them to do me any favours.

I don't dislike or hate the Lib Dems, and some of their policies I agree with. I just can't get past their missed opportunity. Which is a shame because this country would be far better off with more choices and options than the polarised society its become.

That's not true. The Lib Dems pushed Cameron on Proportional Representation and he was only willing to agree to the compromise 'Alternative Vote System'. The Tories helped delay the Referendum until May 2011, giving them enough time to paint the Lib Dems into a corner over tuition fees and thereby cooking their political goose. Then, when the Referendum came around, Cameron made his feelings known, describing AV as "undemocratic, obscure, unfair and crazy". Consequently, AV lost the Referendum 68%-32% with a derisory 42% turnout.

That showed the British public didn't care enough to change FPTP, while the fate of the Lib Dems since 2011 shows you -and the electorate generally - are completely unforgiving about their misdemeanours, whilst willing to tolerate almost anything the Tories do. Despite 65,000 excess deaths, the education exam result fiasco, no-deal Brexit etc voters will still vote Tory in GE 2025 whilst reminding us how about the Lib Dems did a u-turn on tuition fees 15 years earlier and therefore cannot EVER be trusted again.

Again in 2019, the Lib Dems were humiliated because of their policy to reverse Brexit if they should have won a majority in the House of Commons. Arguably, that policy showed too much conviction.

The bottom line is it's not about missed opportunities, it's about cold, hard political realism and that if you get into bed with the Tories they will f*ck you and f*ck you hard. Just look at the DUP and the Brexit border down the Irish Sea Boris promised them they'd never get.