[Politics] Lib Dem leadership contest.

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I have seen lots of murmurings, even from Labour voters about the FPTP voting. Unfortunately the horrible mixed up version of Proportional Representation referendum didn't succeed before but maybe it can be revived so we never get this 80 seat majority for less than 46% of the vote again. There's no accountability.

Blair had plenty of time to introduce a real version PR - but never did - I wonder why.....

 

[Braggfan]

There are all kinds of reasons why the Lib Dems have waned as a political force. The confusing thing is that, at a time when so many voters were repelled by both the Brexit-crazed Tories and a Corbyn-led Labour, they still didn't make the breakthrough.

Why is that?

One of the most convincing arguments is that a lot of moderate voters were worried that a Lib Dem vote would effectively help Corbyn into power, so either abstained, or held their noses and voted Tory, because they saw it as the lesser of two evils.

A lot of people have argued that the last election represented a massive rejection of centre-party politics. I'm not inclined to see it that way – I think it's more likely that our bizarre electoral system simply exaggerated and polarised the two extremes.

I think the Lib Dems actually have a huge natural supporter base. But when you vote for them in a first-past-the-post Parliamentary election, you know that the mathematics are still all about the likelihood of a Tory or Labour government.

Which is exactly why they should have changed the voting system when they had the chance instead of sucking off the devil.

 

[zefarelly]

I don't think the Tax system, at a glance is particularly unfair, it's just too many people get away without paying any.

Change the laws to stop cheating the system, and Most importantly, pay the best tax lawyers the going rate to work for HMRC and make sure the loop holes are not only closed, but every nook and cranny is filled in and rule in the book unswervable.

I know a guy I met through racing who is incredibly wealthy . . . . tax advisor for Barclays, they paid him millions . . . .for saving them billions. Imagine if people like that were working for us all!

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I'd quite like...…

A fair tax system

A fair immigration system

A fair benefits system

Significant and sustained investment in the inner cities for youngsters.

A Police force, which is exactly that, a Force.

Referendum on the return of capital punishment for specified crimes, ie terrorists, Child/Police killers, extreme paedophiles.

Provide a specified minimum standard of living for all pensioners in the UK.

I think that ticks the boxes for the silent majority.

Agree with all of that - except Capital Punishment. Life should be life, but disagree on Death Penalty

There would of course be very different pinions on a 'Fair Tax' system and 'Fair Benefits system'

 

[blue-shifted]

I think you may have a vested interest in that one ...


Capital punishment will never be brought back in this country, certainly not in my lifetime. All opinion polls are against its return

And your idea of a police "force" is a completely non-starter too - people are over-whelmingly against arming the police.

You'd get 100% support for a 'fair' tax system yet ask a hundred people what that means and you'd get a hundred different answers

Country has veered to the right though. If you're 100% confident that a concerted and sustained effort from the right wing press to get a narrow majority through for capital punishment has no chance of working I'm not sure you've been paying attention. Personally I shudder at idea that this becomes a mainstream political conversation again

 

[Braggfan]

voting should be compulsory IMO . . .turnout is average, quite justifiably as a lot of people consider their vote to be worthless, its also very much dependant on where you live.

I think they would be interested in parties iof THEY WERE ANY GOOD . . . brainwashing by the press doesn't help, but generations of ill educated minions has seen to that. . . .

I agree I think voting should be complusory. At the moment it allows party on all sides to be lazy because they can get away with people not engaging and low turnouts. If people had to vote I think polticians in general would be more accountable.

 

[Gwylan]

I disagree with Gwylan about a 'centrist Party - I feel that if we had one then they'd clean up - I'd certainly vote for them.

We have one and they don't clean up

In my lifetime, we've had the Liberals, the SDP and the LD - when have they cleaned up?

The Libs/LDs have been led by Grimmond, Thorpe, Steel, Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg, Cable, Farron, Campbell and Swinson, they've not once captured 10% of the seats let alone a majority. Are all of these incompetent? There were some serious politicians among that lot (as well as Farron and Swinson).

People don't vote for a centrist party, they may like to think they would, but they don't

 

[nwgull]

If IDS gets his way, the pension age will rise to 75, and the triple lock is already under threat. Lots of whinges coming from the over 75s about the tv licence, so maybe the tide is turning with the older generation?

My disillusionment with modern UK politics resulting from the un-checked proliferation of fake news and and tribalism of Brexit makes me all for this being implemented ASAP to be honest. The over 50s who voted for Brexit and dismissed all the costs as so-called project fear should be the first to suffer and pay for it.

All the youngsters who backed remain still have time to top up their personal pensions and retire in their early 60s.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My disillusionment with modern UK politics resulting from the un-checked proliferation of fake news and and tribalism of Brexit makes me all for this being implemented ASAP to be honest. The over 50s who voted for Brexit and dismissed all the costs as so-called project fear should be the first to suffer and pay for it.

All the youngsters who backed remain still have time to top up their personal pensions and retire in their early 60s.

You really think youngsters have got enough money to put into their pensions? Forget Brexit for a minute and look at what youngsters have got in front of them? They don't all go to university.

 

[Gwylan]

Country has veered to the right though. If you're 100% confident that a concerted and sustained effort from the right wing press to get a narrow majority through for capital punishment has no chance of working I'm not sure you've been paying attention. Personally I shudder at idea that this becomes a mainstream political conversation again

I'm not sure it has veered to the right. There's support for Brexit but I'm not convinced there's a massive shift otherwise

Just had a look at the latest YouGov polls on capital punishment. There's a bare majority in favour of support for capital punishment for terrorism and child murder but not for murder of a police officer.

There's been no sustained debate about this though, I think if there was a serious debate about it, that would swing

One of the main reasons why the death penalty was abolished was not a moral one but because there was a reluctance among jurors to find defendants guilty. That is going to intensify.

If I were on a jury, I would automatically find a prisoner not guilty if he or she were facing the death penalty (and that's something I've seen from many people). If just three people felt like that on every jury, the legal system would grind to a halt. Lawyers know this, which is why there's so little support from the legal profession for capital punishment.

And that's before we start talking about the possiblility of innocent people being hanged ...

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

We have one and they don't clean up

In my lifetime, we've had the Liberals, the SDP and the LD - when have they cleaned up?

The Libs/LDs have been led by Grimmond, Thorpe, Steel, Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg, Cable, Farron, Campbell and Swinson, they've not once captured 10% of the seats let alone a majority. Are all of these incompetent? There were some serious politicians among that lot (as well as Farron and Swinson).

People don't vote for a centrist party, they may like to think they would, but they don't

Would you not call New Labour under Blair as centrist. They certainly weren't a socialist party.

Seem to remember he cleaned up.

 

[zefarelly]

My disillusionment with modern UK politics resulting from the un-checked proliferation of fake news and and tribalism of Brexit makes me all for this being implemented ASAP to be honest. The over 50s who voted for Brexit and dismissed all the costs as so-called project fear should be the first to suffer and pay for it.

All the youngsters who backed remain still have time to top up their personal pensions and retire in their early 60s.

I'm in the middle gound age wise, have a nice home in a good area by many standards and a sizable mortgage still . . . . have worked continually nearly 33 years since I was 16, have F**K ALL pension . . . . just a collection of cars/bikes/guitars. I will in all probability still be working when I die. Apparently we're the JAM generation, not only fans of the band but just about managing. as a family we're well above average income, and do not have a lavish lifestyle/holidays flash cars etc . . . . god knows how ohter people fund their lifestyles.

 

[stewart12]

Country has veered to the right though. If you're 100% confident that a concerted and sustained effort from the right wing press to get a narrow majority through for capital punishment has no chance of working I'm not sure you've been paying attention. Personally I shudder at idea that this becomes a mainstream political conversation again

I'm not sure we've veered to the right as a country. Yes, we have a right wing government with an 80 seat majority but that's largely due to our bullshit voting system. A large amount of people voted for left, centre left or centre parties at the last election

 

[zefarelly]

Would you not call New Labour under Blair as centrist. They certainly weren't a socialist party.

Seem to remember he cleaned up.

exactlky . . .red tory. love him or hate him he's the best we've had in my lifetime.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I speak as a Lib Dem voter and party member.

Both Ed Davey and Layla Moran are excellent candidates - both better than former leaders Tim Farron and Jo Swinson. However, it is now crystal clear that as long as the UK persists with a First Past The Post Parliamentary election system the Lib Dems will be screwed and - ultimately - the cause of the Left will be screwed.

Let's be clear about this. The common perception is that the Lib Dems occupy the centre ground, but in reality their core policies and party DNA is left of centre. There is virtually no difference between their policies and those supported by the right of the Labour Party, which is why it was so easy for Chuka Umunna to switch parties. He could see the Lib Dems - post-Clegg - returning to their left of centre core while his own Labour Party was lurching to the left under Corbyn / Momentum.

The issue for me as a voter is that Labour finally have a leader that I believe will be good for this country and deliver many of the things Lib Dems hold dear. Personally, I would like to see the Socialists form their own party and for Labour and Lib Dems to merge into a 'Democrat-style' left of centre party that I feel will have the broad electoral appeal to really threaten the Tories. Alas, I feel that won't come quickly enough to save the break-up of the UK, but I think it will come in time.

It is with regret that I will shortly be cancelling my Lib Dem membership because the bigger picture is in this two-party state we live in a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Tories.

 

[zefarelly]

I'm not sure we've veered to the right as a country. Yes, we have a right wing government with an 80 seat majority but that's largely due to our bullshit voting system. A large amount of people voted for left, centre left or centre parties at the last election

we're being led, advised and swayed by extremely right wing people.

 

[schmunk]

I don't think the Tax system, at a glance is particularly unfair, it's just too many people get away without paying any.

Change the laws to stop cheating the system, and Most importantly, pay the best tax lawyers the going rate to work for HMRC and make sure the loop holes are not only closed, but every nook and cranny is filled in and rule in the book unswervable.

I know a guy I met through racing who is incredibly wealthy . . . . tax advisor for Barclays, they paid him millions . . . .for saving them billions. Imagine if people like that were working for us all!

There aren't many loopholes in personal taxation - IR35 is probably the largest current one, and that should be mostly removed from April 2021. The other significant one I can think of is Inheritance Tax Business Relief and Agricultural Relief, which allow wealthy landowners to pass on their landed estates virtually tax free, whilst the estates of ordinary homeowners pay tax above £325k - this however only benefits a very small number of people, and represents a piddlingly small loss to the exchequer.

Corporate taxation is different, especially for multinational businesses such as Barclays. However, even this is being significantly reined in through BEPS and DAC6.

 

[Baker lite]

I speak as a Lib Dem voter and party member.

Both Ed Davey and Layla Moran are excellent candidates - both better than former leaders Tim Farron and Jo Swinson. However, it is now crystal clear that as long as the UK persists with a First Past The Post Parliamentary election system the Lib Dems will be screwed and - ultimately - the cause of the Left will be screwed.

Let's be clear about this. The common perception is that the Lib Dems occupy the centre ground, but in reality their core policies and party DNA is left of centre. There is virtually no difference between their policies and those supported by the right of the Labour Party, which is why it was so easy for Chuka Umunna to switch parties. He could see the Lib Dems - post-Clegg - returning to their left of centre core while his own Labour Party was lurching to the left under Corbyn / Momentum.

The issue for me as a voter is that Labour finally have a leader that I believe will be good for this country and deliver many of the things Lib Dems hold dear. Personally, I would like to see the Socialists form their own party and for Labour and Lib Dems to merge into a 'Democrat-style' left of centre party that I feel will have the broad electoral appeal to really threaten the Tories. Alas, I feel that won't come quickly enough to save the break-up of the UK, but I think it will come in time.

It is with regret that I will shortly be cancelling my Lib Dem membership because the bigger picture is in this two-party state we live in a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Tories.

[emoji23][emoji23]I’m sure you’ll be missed.

 

[keaton]

I speak as a Lib Dem voter and party member.

Both Ed Davey and Layla Moran are excellent candidates - both better than former leaders Tim Farron and Jo Swinson. However, it is now crystal clear that as long as the UK persists with a First Past The Post Parliamentary election system the Lib Dems will be screwed and - ultimately - the cause of the Left will be screwed.

Let's be clear about this. The common perception is that the Lib Dems occupy the centre ground, but in reality their core policies and party DNA is left of centre. There is virtually no difference between their policies and those supported by the right of the Labour Party, which is why it was so easy for Chuka Umunna to switch parties. He could see the Lib Dems - post-Clegg - returning to their left of centre core while his own Labour Party was lurching to the left under Corbyn / Momentum.

The issue for me as a voter is that Labour finally have a leader that I believe will be good for this country and deliver many of the things Lib Dems hold dear. Personally, I would like to see the Socialists form their own party and for Labour and Lib Dems to merge into a 'Democrat-style' left of centre party that I feel will have the broad electoral appeal to really threaten the Tories. Alas, I feel that won't come quickly enough to save the break-up of the UK, but I think it will come in time.

It is with regret that I will shortly be cancelling my Lib Dem membership because the bigger picture is in this two-party state we live in a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Tories.

I agree with most of that other than it was so easy for Chuka to swap parties because he doesn't seem to believe in anything other than himself.

I hadn't read much about the leadership race but I'm happy Moran didn't win purely on the basis that one of the three party leaders being younger than me would be hugely depressing

 

[Lenny Rider]

Wouldn't we all?



Define "Fair"



More than one way to skin a cat here. Post covid the biggest losers are likely to be youngsters who are suddenly competing for the same jobs as people with more experience, and seeing recruitment freezes and businesses collapsing in the service and gig economy. The more young people earn, the more tax comes into the system and the easier it is to raise the state pension for the most needy of the elderly.

A scale which goes up right across the wage spectrum with the low wage earners paying 15% right up to the top wage earners paying 50%, corporation tax should be transparent, which all the loop holes and fiddles stopped and be a set sliding scale for all companies operating the UK.

Immigration rights should apply to people who already have family living here as UK citizens, or as in the case of Australia and other countries, open for people who can add something to the fabric of our society. Morally we are duty bound to except some people who are fleeing oppressive regimes, but only our fair share, the issue needs addressing right across the free and democratic countries of Europe, not just having the UK as the final destination.

Benefits should be just that, there to benefit all who need it, but just not a hand out. Maybe a basic living wage of £15,000 should be introduced, and people who work for less than that get their money topped up by the state, but people who refuse to work when they can should get the bare minimum.

We need to get a basic work ethic back into this country, which will be easier said than done post covid.

Its something that's stayed with me for over a decade when my boys team was Under 14 one of the Dads lost his job and got offered a job that was only £45 a week more than what his benefits would have been, but he took it and told us all after a game once he did so because he wanted to have his 4 children see him go out to work everyday.

I still believe his attitude back then is still prevalent amongst most people today.