Latest b*ll*cks from Ferguson

[Simster]

The idea that Berbatov was a flop last year is a complete myth in my opinion.

You're right here though.

 

[Mellotron]

Arsenal's "backsliding" as you put it, is not 6 or 7 years old, it's nearer 4 or 5. And it has more to do with a large mortgage and the Abramovich takeover of Chelsea than any poor transfer dealings on Wengers part. In truth, I'm amazed that Arsenal have held onto 4th quite so easily really. Spurs fans find it funny that Arsenal haven't won anything for *gasp* four years - yet they qualify for the European Chumps league EVERY year, and it's not as if the Rumbelows Cup or whatever it is that ADORNS the trophy cabinet across North London actually means anything, is it?

Now lets talk about his signings:
Henry, Vieira, Pires, Anelka, Overmars, Bergkamp, Fabregas, Petit, Ljungberg.

Most of those players were bought for peanuts (relatively speaking) and sold on for a stack, often when beyond their peak years.

And I can't believe you're talking about Toure as a below par signing. He's hardly Phillipe Senderos is he? Toure is CLASS and even now would walk into any side outside the top 5 or 6 in the world IMO.

My point is he didn't build on that success. United have built on theirs and continued to make players into legends.

Since Adams, Bergkamp and Henry, he has not had as good a central defender/rock, support striker and out and out goalscorer, has he?

My point is Toure and Bendtner are hardly Adams and Henry, are they?

Arsenal did not find it easy to hold onto 4th last year, Villa just managed to completely implode in the last 6 weeks or so, it was there for the taking.

 

[Simster]

My point is he didn't build on that success. United have built on theirs and continued to make players into legends.

Since Adams, Bergkamp and Henry, he has not had as good a central defender/rock, support striker and out and out goalscorer, has he?

My point is Toure and Bendtner are hardly Adams and Henry, are they?

Arsenal did not find it easy to hold onto 4th last year, Villa just managed to completely implode in the last 6 weeks or so, it was there for the taking.

Dress up however you like but the simple fact is that Arsenal had 4th place sewn up with a whole month to play. f***ing EASY.

And Wenger was simply unable to build on his success in the way United did, because they curtailed their wage structure in a way that United, Liverpool and Chelsea did not. You get the feeling that in the medium term they are only interested in the Champions League places. In a decade or so, once inflation has eroded their mortgage payments sufficiently, I reckon Arsenal will open the cheque book again.

 

[Mellotron]

Dress up however you like but the simple fact is that Arsenal had 4th place sewn up with a whole month to play. f***ing EASY.

And Wenger was simply unable to build on his success in the way United did, because they curtailed their wage structure in a way that United, Liverpool and Chelsea did not. You get the feeling that in the medium term they are only interested in the Champions League places. In a decade or so, once inflation has eroded their mortgage payments sufficiently, I reckon Arsenal will open the cheque book again.

Through no quality of their own. Only about 6 weeks previous to that they were TEN points behind Villa. Not easy at all. The last minute loss against Stoke completely demoralised Villa, it was a chance to be practically unreachable and they blew it, from there they had a dreadful run of form.

That's a real shame then. I think it's also a shame that a team who finishes 4th every year automatically qualifies for the CHAMPIONS league.

 

[User removed 4]

The idea that Berbatov was a flop last year is a complete myth in my opinion.

9 Goals in 29 is ok, but with 10 assists he finished SECOND out of the entire Prem behind Van Persie with 11.

Quite clearly he is playing a different role at United to that which he excelled in at Spurs, but again quite clearly he has proven very useful with the above stats.

I think they would work better sticking him at the top with Rooney behind though, personally. He would get 20-25 then.

assists ?? who uses that word in a football context except stat obsessed yanks .

 

[Mellotron]

assists ?? who uses that word in a football context except stat obsessed yanks .

What word do you use to explain goals being set up?

He was 2nd in the _ _ _ _ _ _ _s table.

Please fill the above in.

 

[Kosh]

Errrrmmm, he was 2nd in the "Andy Garcia Look-alikes" table...

?

Kosh

 

[User removed 4]

What word do you use to explain goals being set up?


Please fill the above in.

laid on, hope this helps.anyone would think you've only got into football since baddiel and skinner.

 

[Kosh]

Kosh

Garcia at his best!

 

[Mellotron]

laid on, hope this helps.anyone would think you've only got into football since baddiel and skinner.

The laid ons table? That doesn't work now does it?

I'm 23, so yes Euro 96 would be about right.

 

[Acker79]

For me, the problem isn't so much with the term used to explain an "assist" it's with the attitude that statistical analysis of the game is important or relevant in rating players.

Why is the ball a winger slips in for the striker more important than the cross field ball the left back delivered to the winger? Or the quick release of the goal keeper to the left back that allowed him to send the cross field ball? etc. This clinical analysis has no place in sports like football.

 

[Mellotron]

For me, the problem isn't so much with the term used to explain an "assist" it's with the attitude that statistical analysis of the game is important or relevant in rating players.

Why is the ball a winger slips in for the striker more important than the cross field ball the left back delivered to the winger? Or the quick release of the goal keeper to the left back that allowed him to send the cross field ball? etc. This clinical analysis has no place in sports like football.

And no one here is using that clinical analysis. I completely agree and the Americans definitely focus too much on stats.

I only used stats specifically here to bust another "lazy player" myth, and show that Berbatov has been integrally involved in 19 of Man Utd's goals this season, so far from a flop.

 

[Acker79]

And no one here is using that clinical analysis. I completely agree and the Americans definitely focus too much on stats.

I only used stats specifically here to bust another "lazy player" myth, and show that Berbatov has been integrally involved in 19 of Man Utd's goals this season, so far from a flop.

But the stat doesn't disprove he is lazy, or that he played an integral part.

Was he in a prime position because he was too lazy to run back? Did he set up those goals because he never bothered to come back and defend so was always there to latch onto a ball hoofed clear? How much effort did his assists take, was it simply hanging around and tapping the ball away, did it take skill and talent to set the goal up? What would have happened if he wasn't in that position - would the ball have run through anyway, was there another player stood right behind him who would have done the same thing? etc.

I'm not saying any of this is necessarily the case with berbatov, just that the number of assists according to optra doesn't answer these questions.

 

[Mellotron]

But the stat doesn't disprove he is lazy, or that he played an integral part.

Was he in a prime position because he was too lazy to run back? Did he set up those goals because he never bothered to come back and defend so was always there to latch onto a ball hoofed clear? How much effort did his assists take, was it simply hanging around and tapping the ball away, did it take skill and talent to set the goal up? What would have happened if he wasn't in that position - would the ball have run through anyway, was there another player stood right behind him who would have done the same thing? etc.

I'm not saying any of this is necessarily the case with berbatov, just that the number of assists according to optra doesn't answer these questions.

Surely all of the above would suggest good positioning?

A Rio-type defender will always LOOK lazier than a John Terry-type defender, but the fact is Rio's positioning is SO perfect he doesn't need to move as much, he doesn't need to make those last ditch tackles because he didn't make the error of being slightly out of position in the first place.

I would argue that Berbatov is similar. As I said, I used it specifically to help quash the myth that he was ineffective last season. Regardless of the hows and whens, he DID play a part in 19 goals. That is not ineffective, whether done bullishly or with style and grace.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Back on topic, this is all good stuff, isn't it?

For the first time in 30-odd years the Manchester derbies may be significant for BOTH teams in terms of the title and Champions League football.

I find City's bravado quite entertaining, the poster is quality and just the sort of thing City fans would endorse. They've riled Man Utd but now have to deliver.

Ferguson's "small club" comments will be water off a duck's back for a club with as much money to spend as City have got.

And if City can nick Adebayor AND Toure off Arsenal then they're much better placed that Villa, Everton or Spurs before them to nick the 4th spot.

 

[Common as Mook]

Surely all of the above would suggest good positioning?

A Rio-type defender will always LOOK lazier than a John Terry-type defender, but the fact is Rio's positioning is SO perfect he doesn't need to move as much, he doesn't need to make those last ditch tackles because he didn't make the error of being slightly out of position in the first place.

I would argue that Berbatov is similar. As I said, I used it specifically to help quash the myth that he was ineffective last season. Regardless of the hows and whens, he DID play a part in 19 goals. That is not ineffective, whether done bullishly or with style and grace.

I agree that he wasn't bad last season. Those stats and his general performance to me would indicate a player that cost £10m. The stick he receives is because he cost £30+ million

 

[Mellotron]

I agree that he wasn't bad last season. Those stats and his general performance to me would indicate a player that cost £10m. The stick he receives is because he cost £30+ million

Agreed. I think a fair pricing is around £18m for Berbatov overall.

 

[Acker79]

Surely all of the above would suggest good positioning?

Possibly. Or laziness. I'm not passing judgement on Berbatov.

But hanging around on the halway line because you're too lazy to come back isn't good positioning, it's laziness. Hanging around on the half way line to make sure your opponents leave someone back, to give your defence an outlet is good positioning.

If you hang around on the half way line because you're lazy, and then lay the ball off because again you're too lazy to run at goal yourself, it goes up on the assist stat, but you're still a lazy player.

Regardless of the hows and whens, he DID play a part in 19 goals. That is not ineffective, whether done bullishly or with style and grace.

Effective would indicate he did something that without him would go undone. If he and Giggs are both on the corner of the box and the ball goes to him and he slides it in for an assist I would say without him giggs would have done the same thing, without berbatov the result would be the same, so he isn't especially effective in that situation, yet it is given the same weight in stats as one that only he could do.


These stats also don't always take into account attacks that break down because he isn't there, goals that would have been without him are not counted. If he had the work rate of Tevez perhaps he would have scored 20 in 29, had 30 assists, but that is represented in the stats.


Again, I want to stress, I don't mean to be assessing Berbatov, I use his name as an example, I simply think these stats are meaningless and proove nothing, answer no criticism

 

[Pavilionaire]

Tevez scored 19 in 63 for Man Utd, Berbatov's ratio is almost identical at 9 in 31, but Berbatov has created more chances.

The stats from their careers show that Berbatov scores more and creates more than Tevez, therefore if Tevez = £25 million then Berbatov must be around that figure, or certainly upwards of £20million.

 

[Mellotron]

Back on topic, this is all good stuff, isn't it?

For the first time in 30-odd years the Manchester derbies may be significant for BOTH teams in terms of the title and Champions League football.

I find City's bravado quite entertaining, the poster is quality and just the sort of thing City fans would endorse. They've riled Man Utd but now have to deliver.

Ferguson's "small club" comments will be water off a duck's back for a club with as much money to spend as City have got.

And if City can nick Adebayor AND Toure off Arsenal then they're much better placed that Villa, Everton or Spurs before them to nick the 4th spot.

My mum is a better footballer than Adebayor.

Stick me upfront with Nasri, Rosicky, Walcott, Van Persie, Fabregas and Arshavin supplying behind me and I'd get you around 15-20 goals a season.