[Albion] Lack of squad depth will cost us

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Who did Ferguson, Mitoma , Sarmiento, and Enciso "replace" when they joined the club.

It's less about replacing, more about right sizing. Having some contingency for the normal events you'll encounter in a football season.

I can actually see both sides of it. Right sizing is far from an exact science, but what I do reject is that there seems to be a suggestion from some that it's not even a legitimate debate. That any question about whether the club could have acted differently or should learn and do things differently next time, is ignorant entitlement.

 

[Springal]

What have the likes of too young, too old, too injured, too tired Mitoma, Ferguson, Welbeck, March and their 50 goals and assists this season - and all likely to feature on Saturday - ever done for us ? Ha ha.

and then what we need is experienced PL ready players who are as good as those, but then be sat on the bench until end of April to then pick up the baton but also disappear out of the squad entirely to not block the pathway of our youngsters

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

What have the likes of too young, too old, too injured, too tired Mitoma, Ferguson, Welbeck, March and their 50 goals and assists this season - and all likely to feature on Saturday - ever done for us ? Ha ha.

Again, completely and deliberately missing what i'm saying. They've all done brilliantly. My view is that recent evidence is that we've been asking too much of some players in our squad.

You're right, they will feature again in a couple of days. There isn't really an alternative

 

[GT49er]

It's looking like that isn't it. We retain +10 gd over them, so highly likely that as long as we can stay within 3 points of them, we can go there, beat them on the final day and take a precious league position above them.

I actually think if we go there needing a draw, we won't get it. Go there needing to win, I think we might.

Finishing above Spurs has to be the main aim now, surely? - both practically and for justice!

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

There's also a point about the way we play here. Unlike the Potter era, we're getting 4, 5 men in the box on counter attacks, then getting back to cover out of possession. We're pressing as a team for 90 mins. The full backs and midfielders are sprinting up or back down the pitch for the 90 mins. I'd love to see the distance covered stats for Gross, or Mitoma or Estupinan recently, they must be unbelievable, especially in that game at Wembley.

The football we play is exhilarating, but is almost impossible to maintain without a certain level of rotation, certainly when the fixtures are as daunting as they currently are.

 

[Springal]

The football we play is exhilarating, but is almost impossible to maintain without a certain level of rotation, certainly when the fixtures are as daunting as they currently are.

is that not on the manager then ? The same thing levelled at Bielsa when his teams burnt out in the last quarter of every season

 

[Machiavelli]

Who did Ferguson, Mitoma , Sarmiento, and Enciso "replace" when they joined the club.

You're in one of your zones in this thread.
I'm not sure that's a relevant question. They all joined the club at different times, and have come into the squad at different times, and have developed at different rates. If I've got things correctly, all bar Mitoma don't need to be named in the 25 man squad, because they're all under-age. What has been revealed is, if we want to challenge for the highest PL places and operate in other competitions, our situation will be enhanced by having:
-- a deeper squad, and
-- more experienced players in the squad.
Trossard wanted out, and the club (in my view rightly) decided to cash in, and to prevent a disruptive influence. Tragically for him, we lost Mwepu too. That's two experienced players down from a far smaller squad of 25 than most (if not all) of the rest of the PL announced at the close of the summer transfer window.
None of this is about moaning. This is the best season the club has had in its entire history and, even if we lose all remaining fixtures, we've been taken on a delightful ride, and have a hugely promising future. It's just that the reason why we've done so well this season, and have also lost the last two which has caused disappointment is because 'the players are tired' (RdZ, 26.4.23) which is another way of saying the two points made above.
I've said this a few times on various threads: I expect us to spend a fair bit of money over the summer, and much of it will go on addressing those two points.

 

[Black Rod]

We've been left with a frontline of Ferguson (breakthrough striker of the season and fit for Saturday as it happens), Welbeck (made appearances in 30 out of 37 games this season), Mitoma (breakthrough player of the PL season), and March (in the form of his life), let alone Enciso. You make the hatfuls of gaols this lot have scored or made sound like its no different to the days of Chris O Grady and Leon Best .

Thanks for proving my point by bringing Mitoma, March and Enciso into the conversation... none of whom fulfil the number 9 role which De Zerbi's 4-2-3-1 relies so heavily on. It's comparative to grouping Lamptey with Dunk and Webster because they all play in defence.

Welbeck and Ferguson are the only options leading the line and when they are not fit, available or in form (as they have thankfully been since Christmas), it shows.

 

[chaileyjem]

It's less about replacing, more about right sizing. Having some contingency for the normal events you'll encounter in a football season.

I can actually see both sides of it. Right sizing is far from an exact science, but what I do reject is that there seems to be a suggestion from some that it's not even a legitimate debate. That any question about whether the club could have acted differently or should learn and do things differently next time, is ignorant entitlement.

Is there two sides to it. Not sure that as a club with limited resources, wages and unable to compete with the Top 6 or even the deep pockets of a Villa or a West Ham - there is any other strategy worth talking about. So the - buy from cheaper secondary markets, invest in the Academy, have a long term succession plan, develop youth, sell players at a profit, continue to aim to strengthen nonetheless and hire progressive managers to buy into this approach is something we all sign up to . its more a case of how well executed it is.

Of course individual signings and timings and team choices and debating squad strength we're all going to argue over. Wait and sell Trossard in the summer because..., have Gilmour and Undav and Van Hecke worked out as signings or not ? This area is weaker than that area and injuries have left us exposed ? X or y should have had more of a chance in the first team. ? Risky sticking with x or y because of their injury issues or not. All of that is fine and well debated and should be.
As for - do we have the depth to get us into Europe ? I'd say no way at the beginning of the season. I'd say now - definitely . But i'm not sure that Sunday and Wednesday have changed my mind that much. Or that Wednesday and Sunday means we shouldn't have sold players in January and so on. Its the knee jerk /hindsight/ cake and eat it stuff i think that gets people going up on threads like this. . And boring nonsense like spouted like me no doubt ha ha.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Let’s say at 16:15 on Saturday we are 0-0 with Wolves and Caicedo is clearly knackered, what’s the better outcome;

1) leave him on, he’s Moises Caicedo
2) introduce a fresh eager Billy Gilmour to potentially shake and freshen things up

We don’t have the squad depth, this isn’t a sensational exclusive, I suspect each Matchday squad is capable, some better in some areas than others but we need to use the squad when we have a fixture pile up and injuries.

I’d rather find out if our fringe squad is good enough rather than play 1 if not 2 players down being the equivalent to fatigue.

It’s probably beneficial to know the true squad strength ahead of a summer window anyway

 

[chaileyjem]

Another bugbear from last night was reports that "Forest wanted it more".
Do only teams that win matches "Want it more". Can you want it more but still lose ? Does Lewis Dunk not "want it" as much as anyone but that's not neccessarily enough to get a win over the line and other things are more important. One of the more unhelpful and empty football cliches.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Is there two sides to it. Not sure that as a club with limited resources, wages and unable to compete with the Top 6 or even the deep pockets of a Villa or a West Ham - there is any other strategy worth talking about. So the - buy from cheaper secondary markets, invest in the Academy, have a long term succession plan, develop youth, sell players at a profit, continue to aim to strengthen nonetheless and hire progressive managers to buy into this approach is something we all sign up to . its more a case of how well executed it is.

Of course individual signings and timings and team choices and debating squad strength we're all going to argue over. Wait and sell Trossard in the summer because..., have Gilmour and Undav and Van Hecke worked out as signings or not ? This area is weaker than that area and injuries have left us exposed ? X or y should have had more of a chance in the first team. ? Risky sticking with x or y because of their injury issues or not. All of that is fine and well debated and should be.
As for - do we have the depth to get us into Europe ? I'd say no way at the beginning of the season. I'd say now - definitely . But i'm not sure that Sunday and Wednesday have changed my mind that much. Or that Wednesday and Sunday means we shouldn't have sold players in January and so on. Its the knee jerk /hindsight/ cake and eat it stuff i think that gets people going up on threads like this. . And boring nonsense like spouted like me no doubt ha ha.

And i'm not trying to suggest junking part or all of our strategy either.

It's quite possible to bring players to do a medium term job to fill a gap while retaining your long term strategy. There are examples in the squad of this.

In fact, it's my belief in our strategy that's informing my view that the squad is 2 or 3 short. I think we would have liked to ideally manage the introduction of Enciso, Offiah and Buonanotte differently ... on our terms rather than something closer to necessity

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Another bugbear from last night was reports that "Forest wanted it more".
Do only teams that win matches "Want it more". Can you want it more but still lose ? Does Lewis Dunk not "want it" as much as anyone but that's not neccessarily enough to get a win over the line and other things are more important. One of the more unhelpful and empty football cliches.

As is the ‘tired’ claim. I’ve heard it from fans and managers of all the top clubs. It comes with the territory when you are successful. I suppose it’s no surprise that people are over analyzing a couple of defeats in a great season. Usually the referees would be getting the criticism.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Another bugbear from last night was reports that "Forest wanted it more".
Do only teams that win matches "Want it more". Can you want it more but still lose ? Does Lewis Dunk not "want it" as much as anyone but that's not neccessarily enough to get a win over the line and other things are more important. One of the more unhelpful and empty football cliches.

As is the conclusion that it must be a poor performance if you lose. I'm not sure we played any worse than we did at Bournemouth, we finished up 2 nil winners there, 3-1 defeat here. We got punished last night for errors, sometimes you get away with them.

 

[kevo]

It's looking like that isn't it. We retain +10 gd over them, so highly likely that as long as we can stay within 3 points of them, we can go there, beat them on the final day and take a precious league position above them.

I actually think if we go there needing a draw, we won't get it. Go there needing to win, I think we might.

What I hadn't factored in though is that our three games in hand are against Man City, Man Utd and Newcastle. Hopefully we can stay within 3 points. The other hope is that Spurs continue to implode.

 

[albionalex]

The Gilmour thing is a bit baffling. RDZ played him against Arsenal & Liverpool in the cups and seemed more than capable the minutes he has had since.

I agree, not rotating Gilmour in throughout the season (so he's match ready) has been one of RDZ's few mistakes IMO.

Would be nice to find out!

Gilmour has had limited minutes but whenever he's played, he hasn't shown anything that would suggest he should play more.

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise considering how poor he supposedly was for Norwich last season.

RDZ sees him in training each day and clearly does not rate him (and it appears Ayari may even be ahead of him in the pecking order now).

Mac, Moises and Gross are levels above him. There's no reason he should play more.

 

[albionalex]

Completely agree. For once Moises was caught out for their second goal. I’m sure it was due to mental concentration levels being off his norm.

It's not the first time this season Moises (or other players) have got caught out with the risky passes at the back. It's just the first time we've been punished for it.

 

[Springal]

Gilmour has had limited minutes but whenever he's played, he hasn't shown anything that would suggest he should play more.

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise considering how poor he supposedly was for Norwich last season.

RDZ sees him in training each day and clearly does not rate him (and it appears Ayari may even be ahead of him in the pecking order now).

Mac, Moises and Gross are levels above him. There's no reason he should play more.

Fair enough, if running those players in the ground is preferred over a £10M+ signing from last summer then someone’s really f***ed up. Likewise Undav

 

[Littlemo]

Gilmour has had limited minutes but whenever he's played, he hasn't shown anything that would suggest he should play more.

I think he’s done alright tbh, he got the assist for Lamptey’s goal against Arsenal, was really involved in setting up Mitoma’s winner against Liverpool, we looked much better after he came on and we changed shape. I think in both Arsenal matches he did better as the game went on and he got up to speed.

It might not be loads but given the limited game time, it’s not the worst return.

Mac, Moises and Gross are levels above him. There's no reason he should play more.

The reason to play him more is what we are seeing now, the players are knackered and we need someone who is match fit and can come in for them for part or all of a match.

 

[Machiavelli]

As is the ‘tired’ claim. I’ve heard it from fans and managers of all the top clubs. It comes with the territory when you are successful. I suppose it’s no surprise that people are over analyzing a couple of defeats in a great season. Usually the referees would be getting the criticism.

RdZ disagrees with you on this. I agree with RdZ on this. I'm especially thinking of Mitoma on Sun, Estupinan, Dunk and Caicedo last night, but there are others that I didn't notice quite so much in one or both games.
FWIW, I agree with @chaileyjem on the 'wanting it more' bugbear, and also the @Bold Seagull about only playing well (badly) when we win (lose) -- and, on this, I also think RdZ was spot on: we played really well for 35 minutes in the first half but tired in the second.
I also don't agree with those that are making comparisons with a week or two back: we weren't playing three games in six days then, and it is when you go through such intensive periods of game time with plenty more ahead of you that the squad depth and experience gets tested the most.
I'm also not even saying that we should have bought 'replacements' for Mwepu and Tross in Jan -- Tony doesn't like Jan, or has said he doesn't, despite making some great Jan signings -- it's merely that our squad is short of depth and experience to sustain a challenge for the heights of the PL and multiple cup runs. On this:
1, this is a new and wonderful experience
2, I suspect that the issue of squad depth and experience will be addressed this summer