[Politics] Labour Anti Semitism - Against the faith or the Israeli State?

[vegster]

Chief Rabbi massively over-egging the cake IMHO. Smells like a smear campaign. Patently Labour are at odds with certain actions of the Israeli State, as are most right-minded people, but to accuse Labour of being anti people of the Jewish faith seems to me to be utterly absurd.

A lady caller on the LBC phone in this morning said she was " genuinely scared for what would happen to Jewish people with a Labour government under Corbyn " The caller was asked what she feared Jeremy Corbyn might do that would scare her so much ? she replied " There are signs that it's like the rise of Nazism in the 1930'S "...

Caller was then told " That's quite a statement ? Are you going to provide any evidence for this ? " ….." Do you have any evidence you can share that would support this view ? " caller " Well, er, no I can't think of any actual evidence but it just seems like …."

.

 

[Live by the sea]

To some people this is enough of a reason to constantly accuse him of being anti-Semitic...

Not that I do may I add, I share his concerns on this matter.

That’s fair enough, but do you also share the concerns about 10 year old Palestinian children being trained as suicide bombers to kill Israelis and all Palestinian children taught in school books that Jews are the enemy and should be killed where ever possible. Or is it just one side you choose to listen to. If Palestinians were given their own state tomorrow with their own govt, what do you think would happen. Do you think they would live peacefully beside Israel or would Hamas demand it attack Israel again to try to destroy it. The latter is the most likely. It’s all well and good supporting a Palestinian state in theory but in practise you are not dealing with rational people you are dealing with groups like Hamas and Islamic jihad, prescribed terrorist groups. These are the people who happily throw gay people off tall buildings.

All the free Palestinian supporters need to think about what the outcome of this is which is why even the UN has been hesitant because they know of the extreme difficulties to make this viable. Usually not always but usually people that actively support this cause hate Israel and would be happy to see it disappear . So it’s not surprising that Corbyn who has only ever demonstrated for the Palestinians and never shown any understanding or care about the Israeli side is so distrusted byJewish people because he has never demonstrated he is an honest broker in the way someone like Obama has.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A lady caller on the LBC phone in this morning said she was " genuinely scared for what would happen to Jewish people with a Labour government under Corbyn " The caller was asked what she feared Jeremy Corbyn might do that would scare her so much ? she replied " There are signs that it's like the rise of Nazism in the 1930'S "...

Caller was then told " That's quite a statement ? Are you going to provide any evidence for this ? " ….." Do you have any evidence you can share that would support this view ? " caller " Well, er, no I can't think of any actual evidence but it just seems like …."

.

Indeed.

But Corbyn is an easy target here. A few soppy gobshites in his party conflate Israel with Jewishness and come up with racist statements. Instead of chucking them out of the party for dumb goonery, inquiries are set up that pontificate the meaning and intent of what was said, with people on the committees who don't understand what they are doing, and themselves conflate a dislike of Likud with antisemitism.....

Corbyn should have seen this and acted. Instead he seems stuck in his little world of condemning all racism. If some of my Brighton mates attacked an opposition supporter, I'd call them out. I wouldn't keep reciting the mantra that 'I condemn all violence, whether it be at the football, or the cricket' etc etc.

I just heard a clip of old Brillo Pad Neil destroying Corbyn again on the radio over this. Jezza may as well paint 'kick me' on his arse and bend over.

I'm still voting labour (tactically) though because I of course know that Corbyn is not an antisemite, and neither is the the architecture and fabric of the labour party (any more than the tories are 'Islamophobic'). This is about shit PR, and Corbyn has a PhD in shit PR, sadly. Possible a Nobel Prize candidate for PR shitness of a global magnitude and lasting impact.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There still is a problem, albeit minor, within the Labour Party. And if that gives me more ammunition then I will use it

Post of the week. Albeit not for the reason intended.

Yes, of course this is being used as a stick to beat the labour party with, by enemies of Corbyn. A tiny stick that motivated people are pretending is actually a massive, ugly and lethal cosh (with apologies to [MENTION=494]Kosh[/MENTION], who is doubtlessly proportioned and perfectly formed)

Who knew, eh?

Someone asked why so many British Jews are resigning from labour (the smoke and fire scenario). I suspect the answer is that they don't like Corbyn, and their outrage threshold has been lowered. Quite a lot of lifelong labour members have flounced from Corbyn's momentumarium.

I can understand the process, since on the other end of the spectrum, my outrage threshold has been lowered by Boris (to the point where I'm prepared to vote tactically for labour to reduce the risk of a Boris majority).

I do love a bit of honesty

 

[BenGarfield]

That’s fair enough, but do you also share the concerns about 10 year old Palestinian children being trained as suicide bombers to kill Israelis and all Palestinian children taught in school books that Jews are the enemy and should be killed where ever possible. Or is it just one side you choose to listen to. If Palestinians were given their own state tomorrow with their own govt, what do you think would happen. Do you think they would live peacefully beside Israel or would Hamas demand it attack Israel again to try to destroy it. The latter is the most likely. It’s all well and good supporting a Palestinian state in theory but in practise you are not dealing with rational people you are dealing with groups like Hamas and Islamic jihad, prescribed terrorist groups. These are the people who happily throw gay people off tall buildings.

All the free Palestinian supporters need to think about what the outcome of this is which is why even the UN has been hesitant because they know of the extreme difficulties to make this viable. Usually not always but usually people that actively support this cause hate Israel and would be happy to see it disappear . So it’s not surprising that Corbyn who has only ever demonstrated for the Palestinians and never shown any understanding or care about the Israeli side is so distrusted byJewish people because he has never demonstrated he is an honest broker in the way someone like Obama has.

Are you implying that Jewish people should owe some automatic allegience or sympathy for the Israeli state?

 

[Chicken Run]

A lady caller on the LBC phone in this morning said she was " genuinely scared for what would happen to Jewish people with a Labour government under Corbyn " The caller was asked what she feared Jeremy Corbyn might do that would scare her so much ? she replied " There are signs that it's like the rise of Nazism in the 1930'S "...

Caller was then told " That's quite a statement ? Are you going to provide any evidence for this ? " ….." Do you have any evidence you can share that would support this view ? " caller " Well, er, no I can't think of any actual evidence but it just seems like …."

.

Caller on Heart this morning won 3 grand

 

[Motogull]

There's a bigger picture here.

Think about nations, religions and cultures associated with aggro. What have the septics, muzzies and heebs got in common? No foreskins. Ban circumcision, save for medical purposes, and watch the world become a better place.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I think this is called ‘weaponising’ anti-semitism.

 

[Wardy's twin]

To some people this is enough of a reason to constantly accuse him of being anti-Semitic...

Not that I do may I add, I share his concerns on this matter.

In reality there are two choices, you either support people who are quite happy to say they want to see the state of Israel destroyed and the Jewish people who live there extinguished or you support a semi democratic country who have been under siege for most of its existence. Corbyn has in effect chosen the first group.

Wait I hear what about supporting neither , a good point but if the US and the UK were to stop support for Israel it and the people there would be destroyed

Yes I have made this very simple, I am aware there are a lot more complexities involved but i don't have days to right an essay on the subject.

Putting it simply the left wing's hate for Israel is because it as identified as being part of the US strategy of neo-colonialism which is not the original reason the State was founded.

 

[clapham_gull]

Indeed.

But Corbyn is an easy target here. A few soppy gobshites in his party conflate Israel with Jewishness and come up with racist statements. Instead of chucking them out of the party for dumb goonery, inquiries are set up that pontificate the meaning and intent of what was said, with people on the committees who don't understand what they are doing, and themselves conflate a dislike of Likud with antisemitism.....

Corbyn should have seen this and acted. Instead he seems stuck in his little world of condemning all racism. If some of my Brighton mates attacked an opposition supporter, I'd call them out. I wouldn't keep reciting the mantra that 'I condemn all violence, whether it be at the football, or the cricket' etc etc.

I just heard a clip of old Brillo Pad Neil destroying Corbyn again on the radio over this. Jezza may as well paint 'kick me' on his arse and bend over.

I'm still voting labour (tactically) though because I of course know that Corbyn is not an antisemite, and neither is the the architecture and fabric of the labour party (any more than the tories are 'Islamophobic'). This is about shit PR, and Corbyn has a PhD in shit PR, sadly. Possible a Nobel Prize candidate for PR shitness of a global magnitude and lasting impact.

My view is quite very simple:

Imagine a circle drawn on the ground .

Within it are all the people who deeply oppose racism (and its wider definition including Antisemitism and Islamophobia) but are equally offended by the actions of the current Israeli Government towards Palestine. That's a pretty mainstream left wing view.

Inside another circle are people who believe conspiracy theories such as there being a secret one world government, the Holocaust if not denied is exaggerated as an excuse for Israel aggression, the world is controlled by Capitalist Bankers (many of whom just happen to be Jewish) etc..

Reality tells us there are many with one foot inside both circles.

Some (not thousands, I'd doubt it's even in the hundreds) have recently joined the Labour Party after they made it very easy and cheap to join. Not even Corbyn's.

The mistake the Party have made is to drag on "democratically" with far too long investigations slash intellectual discussions and in some cases only offer a simple warning or suspension.

It's really really easy. You have both both feet within the first circle or leave. The Labour Party has failed collectively to ensure that test has been in place. It's quite clear from the Andrew Neil interview.

I don't particularly blame Corbyn but he needs to be a little less "democratic" regarding this issue and show leadership.

(*) My views on a number of things in life are influenced by the concept of Fuzzy Set Theory as devised by the mathematician Dr. Lotfi Zadeh. As much as I'd love to explain the problem of Antisemitism within the Labour Party with degrees of truth and trapezoids, I've decided to go full on Venn.

 

[Klaas]

Shock of shocks........I could entirely almost entirely agree with you. That said, there still is a problem, albeit minor, within the Labour Party. And if that gives me more ammunition then I will use it

That said, I also dislike how the Jewish faith/community will call anything and everything anti Semitic. Could be graffiti on a synagogue (without actual reference to Judaism), a comment on integration or one of a number of other things, but very often the Jewish community will call “anti-semitism” when it is nothing of the sort.

I wonder if the Jewish community and the Scousers swap campaigning tips?

Also wellquickwoody;

I know that the holocaust happened. I also know that the Jewish propaganda machine is constantly at work to keep their perceived version of anti- semitism in the headlines. Nothing to see here, move on people.

What a charmer

 

[Eeyore]

A large post full of stuff that actually seems reasonable whether you agree with it or not. And then, in your last sentence, you betray yourself. The real Corbynistas are spending this whole campaign attacking Swinson and the Lib Dems. Why? Because they know they can’t beat Boris.

There’s the real measure of Corbyn. A leader who is so pathetic he’s given up any hope of beating a racist, mendacious, bumbling fool who took over a government with a barely functioning majority and turned it in to one with a chaotic minority.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The biggest issue facing Labour is not it's defeatist attitude towards Johnson, it is the prima facie attitude of many of the general public towards newspaper headlines.

 

[Chicken Run]

My view is quite very simple:

Imagine a circle drawn on the ground .

Within it are all the people who deeply oppose racism (and its wider definition including Antisemitism and Islamophobia) but are equally offended by the actions of the current Israeli Government towards Palestine. That's a pretty mainstream left wing view.

Inside another circle are people who believe conspiracy theories such as there being a secret one world government, the Holocaust if not denied is exaggerated as an excuse for Israel aggression, the world is controlled by Capitalist Bankers (many of whom just happen to be Jewish) etc..

Reality tells us there are many with one foot inside both circles.

Some (not thousands, I'd doubt it's even in the hundreds) have recently joined the Labour Party after they made it very easy and cheap to join. Not even Corbyn's.

The mistake the Party have made is to drag on "democratically" with far too long investigations slash intellectual discussions and in some cases only offer a simple warning or suspension.

It's really really easy. You have both both feet within the first circle or leave. The Labour Party has failed collectively to ensure that test has been in place. It's quite clear from the Andrew Neil interview.

I don't particularly blame Corbyn but he needs to be a little less "democratic" regarding this issue and show leadership.

(*) My views on a number of things in life are influenced by the concept of Fuzzy Set Theory as devised by the mathematician Dr. Lotfi Zadeh. As much as I'd love to explain the problem of Antisemitism within the Labour Party with degrees of truth and trapezoids, I've decided to go full on Venn.

You forgot the other circle full of people who are too busy in their lives juggling child care, jobs etc perhaps care for elderly relatives who really aren’t that bothered at all?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

My view is quite very simple:

Imagine a circle drawn on the ground .

Within it are all the people who deeply oppose racism (and its wider definition including Antisemitism and Islamophobia) but are equally offended by the actions of the current Israeli Government towards Palestine. That's a pretty mainstream left wing view.

Inside another circle are people who believe conspiracy theories such as there being a secret one world government, the Holocaust if not denied is exaggerated as an excuse for Israel aggression, the world is controlled by Capitalist Bankers (many of whom just happen to be Jewish) etc..

Reality tells us there are many with one foot inside both circles.

Some (not thousands, I'd doubt it's even in the hundreds) have recently joined the Labour Party after they made it very easy and cheap to join. Not even Corbyn's.

The mistake the Party have made is to drag on "democratically" with far too long investigations slash intellectual discussions and in some cases only offer a simple warning or suspension.

It's really really easy. You have both both feet within the first circle or leave. The Labour Party has failed collectively to ensure that test has been in place. It's quite clear from the Andrew Neil interview.

I don't particularly blame Corbyn but he needs to be a little less "democratic" regarding this issue and show leadership.

(*) My views on a number of things in life are influenced by the concept of Fuzzy Set Theory as devised by the mathematician Dr. Lotfi Zadeh. As much as I'd love to explain the problem of Antisemitism within the Labour Party with degrees of truth and trapezoids, I've decided to go full on Venn.

I understand what you're saying and agree with it. Sometimes full on Venn is sufficient

(You did confuse me with one one statement though....)

 

[Wardy's twin]

You forgot the other circle full of people who are too busy in their lives juggling child care, jobs etc perhaps care for elderly relatives who really aren’t that bothered at all?

life is made up of many such circles including the one above and what is odd is that such people strangely vote for a Tory agenda blaming the EU for their woes when the reality is the government has driven down standards of living and focused on improving the position of the super rich by giving them tax breaks and by let the gig economy grow to the adversity of many low paid.

This is of course a simplification of reality, but what is disturbing is that people are ignoring anti-semitism as there are parallels in history.

You may think I am a Corbynsta , I am not, when people have said we need to shake up politics I agree maybe its time to forget this divisive set of parties who are currently making the divide worse. Democracy is about compromise and consensus not winners and losers . We need to explore why as a nation the ills that are troubling us and agree a way out.

 

[Soylent Blue]

The leadership of the Zionist entity are the true anti-semites and in some instances even Nazi collaborators and I ****ing hate that media etc finds it perfectly fine to mock Orthodox jews but dont allow a bad word about the Zionist fraction. So much history is "hidden" (though its there, official and all, if you really dig into it). Some examples of the disgusting actions and non-actions of the Zionist leadership:

In 1938 Zionist leader Golda Meir turned down Hitler's offer to let Jews leave Germany for $250 per person.

In 1940 Zionist leader Henry Ford said no to helping Jewish refugees stuck in the Danube river, saying "

In 1941 and 1942 Gestapo offers the Zionist leaders to escort Jewish families to Spain for $1000 per family (paid at arrival in Spain) with some preconditions: 1) none of the deported can go to Palestine, b) all of the deported gets asylum in USA or UK/UK colonies. The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey who got this offer turned it down, meaning only Palestine was good enough. These leaders very well knew that the alternative to accepting this offer was the gas chambers.

In 1944 the same offer is given about the Hungarian jews, but again the Zionist leaders says no.

In December 1942 the UK parliament had a plan to move 500 000 Jews from Germany to different UK colonies. Negotiations with the German government started, but the Zionist leaders in UK said no, meaning it was not an option as long as Palestine was excluded.

16th February 1943, Romania says 70 000 Jewish refugees in the Trans-Dniestra region to leave for 50$ per person. Yitzhak Greenbaum of the Jewish Agency in Tel-Aviv said of the offer: "when they asked, could you organization help us with the money, I said no, and I say no again, you have to reject these offers that put the Zionist activity second. A cow in Palestine is more important than a thousand Jews in Europe". One week later, Stephen Wise, a zionist leader in the US, also turned the offer down.

In 1947, after the war was over, US politican William Station said they should immediatly allow 400 000 Jews still in refugee camps (refusing to move to Israel since it is against Orthodox beliefs). Zionist leaders publicly said no.

Ten years later, hundreds of thousands of Jews refusing to move to Israel still lived in refugee camps. When Canadian politician JW Pickersgill got the question "cant you open your doors for these Jews?", he said "Yes... but the Israeli government dont want us to".

The UK government gave 300 rabbis and their families visas to move to Mauritius (going through Turkey). The Jewish Agency sabotaged the plan, saying it was "disloyal against Palestine".

1941, Jews of the Israeli nationalist organisation Lehi or "Stern Gang" tells the German government they could collaborate because:
1. There could be common interest between the new, German Europe and a Zionist state in Palestine. 2. Not only common interests but collaboration would be possible between these states. 3. A deal with the German goverment considering a Zionist state could strengthen the German power in the Middle East.

They also suggested Jewish men to be trained by the German army in order to easily take over Palestine.

Mind you, the terrorists of the Stern Gang held very high positions in the Israeli state when it was formed.

This is anti-Semitism or to be exact left wing anti-Semitism, the type that got Ken Livingstone the sack. WRT the holocaust RW anti-Semitism follows the narrative of either the holocaust didn’t happen or if it did it was a good thing, LW anti-Semitism shifts the blame for the holocaust from the Nazi’s onto the Jews often calling them Zionists and accusing them being callous or manipulative/untrustworthy towards other Jews. The definition of Zionism is someone who believes in the state of Israel and cares for the welfare of Jews, Left wing anti-Semitism Labels Jews as Zionists while accusing them of being hostile to the welfare of other Jews, a contradiction masked in semantics (Of course anti-Semites will happily dip into either political wing of anti-sematism).

I will quickly address a couple of factual points that Swansman has claimed in his posts because most of the problem is one of omission. The problem is a lack of independent evidence other than an ideological Rabbi but firstly the claim in another post that Golda Meir had a reputation for being untrustworthy goes against all evidence I can find, Wiki quotes Ben-Gurion as saying of Golda Meir as a "strong-willed, straight-talking, grey-bunned grandmother of the Jewish people."

Also the claim that both houses of parliament debated taking 500,000 million jews would be documented. A lot of the other claims are not credible, like the Gestapo discussed trading Jews for ransom during the war.

Its very hard to find any Citations to Swansmans claims, the rabbi quoted is popular among conspiracy and far left websites with one article titled,

'Zionists Were Spiritually And
Physically*Responsible
For The Holocaust'
Excerpted From An Article By*Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann

https://rense.com/general74/holl.htm

What has been omitted gives a clearer picture. German jews were not quick to leave Germany for a number of reasons. Firstly the 1935 Nuremburg Laws stripped jews of citizenship and the abilit to travel, many that did escape used papers forged by various Ambassadors and consulate works from over 30 embassys including countries like Bolivia and China, secondly German jews thought it was people of ill repute who emigrated(Usually to the USA), and thirdly the Jews expected the worse but not the impossible.

After KristalNacht in November 1938 the policy of the German National Socialist Party was to not let Jews leave to prevent Witness testaments stack up against them(as well as slave labour and hostage value in an impending war). All though a lot of evidence of the final solution was destroyed a lot of evidence was recorded like Transfer documents, ie 40,000 jews from Rotterdam to Belson then on to Auschwitz.
Any evidence of attempts to trade Jews and build up the narrative that they just wanted to rid themselves of the Jews not destroy them would have been retained.

Digging deeper it is not difficult to find evidence that Hitler wanted the Jews destroyed rather than evicted, as well as various rants in Mien Kampf there is this quote by Hitler in 1922..

“"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!" '

As for Corbyn, he is well documented hob nobbing with Hamas and groups advocating genocide of the Jews, this parallels Hitlers warm relationships with Islamic leaders who wanted the Jews destroyed ie the Mufti of Jerusalem. Given the progressive nature of the holocaust which began soon after Hitlers election in 1933 with the Nuremburg laws and ended with Death camps a decade later you cant really blame Jews for being nervous as they see history begin to repeat itself and not wanting to make the same mistake again.

 

[Soylent Blue]

My opinion is I agree with you. It seems that dark forces are afoot to paint anyone who dares criticise Israel and their less than innocent deeds, as being anti semetic.

Oh no, does that make me anti-semetic...?

Possibly.

What dark forces are you alluding to withhout an example?

Dark forces, hidden forces, conspiracy?

This looks like an anti-semetic trope, maybe you where being edgy, clumsy or ignorant in your post? I am willing to accept what ever explanation you give, what worrys me is after a week nobody has called you out on it and looks like plenty of people are happy with it from the likes.

This suggests to me that there is an anti-Semitic problem in Labour and on Northstandchat.

 

[Kosh]

Post of the week. Albeit not for the reason intended.

Yes, of course this is being used as a stick to beat the labour party with, by enemies of Corbyn. A tiny stick that motivated people are pretending is actually a massive, ugly and lethal cosh (with apologies to [MENTION=494]Kosh[/MENTION], who is doubtlessly proportioned and perfectly formed)

Who knew, eh?

Someone asked why so many British Jews are resigning from labour (the smoke and fire scenario). I suspect the answer is that they don't like Corbyn, and their outrage threshold has been lowered. Quite a lot of lifelong labour members have flounced from Corbyn's momentumarium.

I can understand the process, since on the other end of the spectrum, my outrage threshold has been lowered by Boris (to the point where I'm prepared to vote tactically for labour to reduce the risk of a Boris majority).

I do love a bit of honesty

Yes it’s true; I am indeed, thoroughly handsome.

And as Sooty often quipped to Matthew: errrmmm nothing actually as it was all in his head! Absolutely, scorchingly insane. Still I loved the imagined rapport, and as for Sweep, he could slay me with one brilliantly timed squeak.

I mean; that one where Sweep’s long lost relatives turn up, MAN was that up there with fork handles and the pervy driving instructor from Hale and Pace. Pure comedy gold and...

Genius.

Kosh

 

[London Irish]

This week Theresa May led a ceremony to put up a statue to Nancy Astor, one of the biggest antisemites ever to enter Parliament, a Hitler sympathiser. Zero complaints from anyone. This Inconsistency shows that the Press don’t care about antisemitism but merely attacking the Labour Party

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This week Theresa May led a ceremony to put up a statue to Nancy Astor, one of the biggest antisemites ever to enter Parliament, a Hitler sympathiser. Zero complaints from anyone. This Inconsistency shows that the Press don’t care about antisemitism but merely attacking the Labour Party

I agree with you, but as Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson knew, if you are labour you have to manage the piece. Corbyn has allowed the 'investigation' into antisemitism to go on too long, and has made it worse by refusing to condemn it by name ('I condemn all forms of racism' etc etc).

Don't forget, the tories and their followers include a cohort (it isn't all of them) who are as devoted and committed to manipulating the landscape to their advantage by whatever means, whatever dishonesty, using whatever half-truth (or even downright lie - remember baa baa black sheep?) and whatever misrepresentation they can fashion. Labour used to know how to rebut all that stuff. Operating efficiently in the piranha pool that is the modern internet-driven mediascape seems to be beyond Jezza, sadly.