[News] Just Stop Oil

[rogersix]

No idea. Persuading people to take a significant drop in lifestyle for the sake of general but unspecific future benefits is usually impossible.

The Just Stop Oil people, apart from the extreme but rational fringes who live in woodland communes with very little power usage, are only playing round the edges. What we would need to do to have a chance of convincing the world to change its ways is to make sure that the UK uses less power (not just less fossil fuels, but less power) than the average. Other counties, most of which are still vastly poorer than us, are not going to damage their chances of wealth unless they see us damaging our accumulated wealth and lifestyle. (And probably not then.) And who in this country is going to vote for a lifestyle less affluent than half the world?

how would you solve this conumdrum?

 

[chickens]

@Triggaaar

Similar reputation, similar costs, but if you don’t like that one, pick the Renault Zoe vs the Renault Clio.

Honda cars are more expensive than Nissan, and they have a better reputation. Next you'll be telling me that you can get a Skoda for less than you can get a Porsche - both German cars, and the Skoda has even more space!

As I mentioned to dsr-burnley, I’ve owned both, and while the Honda successfully gave the initial impression of being a better made product, the service bills and general ownership experience confirmed the Leaf as the better car.

Those older Leafs come with 24kw batteries, and with the life expectancy of 10 years you're probably looking at replacement quite soon on a 2015 model. The price for that seems to vary wildely from £5k to £12.5k - but either way, it's putting taking the total cost past the cost of even a Civic.

Some of them come with 30kw batteries, and while the batteries will absolutely need replacing eventually, I’m confident that the batteries will get to somewhere between 10 and 15 years before they absolutely need replacing. The Leaf was deliberately over engineered.

I’d also wager that what you’d pay in fuel and maintenance/service costs with the Honda over 15 years compared to the Leaf would pay for the battery replacement, possibly several times over. Still, if you really want to fund Big Oil so it can purchase more sports and waste your own money into the bargain, be my guest.

Back at ya

Shot returned, slight top-spin.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The problem is not how much oil and gas is pumped nor how much coal comes out of the ground.

The simple truth is that the problem is how much of those each and everyone of us use.

The answer is not just an increase in renewables but incentives for us all to decrease our usage.

One example is the comparison of air source heat pumps - the government has set a target of 600,000 being installed by 2028 - sounds great until you realise that some 23 million households depend on gas boilers for their heating and hot water!

I believe their should be a carrot and stick approach to this - subsidise the one you want people to use and tax hard the ones you want to stop.

The same argument could be applied to new car sales, modes of transport, car, rail, bus, air etc.

Whatever the approach it has to be accepted that if we all continue to use the amount of energy we do today then the future doesn’t look very bright.

Just Stop Oil are I believe attacking climate change from the wrong angle but at least they aren’t being complacent about it.

And there in lies the issue. It is US that has to change our habits - the normal person in the street - governments won't solve the problem.

So hands up :

> Who has switched to an EV ?
> Who has got rid of their car entirely and relies on foot and pedal power ?
> Who has stopped renewing their phones when their contract comes to an end ?
> Who has got rid of their gas boiler ?
> Who avoids buying products wrapped in plastic ?
> Who walks to the supermarket to do the weekly shop and drags it back .... on foot ?
> Who has turned the heating down in winter to be 16 degrees ?
> Who has given up flying anywhere ?

Virtually nobody. And there is the problem ....... US !

 

[Hamilton]

Dead right @Westdene Seagull - we all want there to be a solution to the problem but without actually doing anything ourselves - at least not en masse.

I can tick some of those boxes, but not all, and I have to keep fighting myself to change my behaviour. It's a struggle, because we've all been trained to behave in a certain way because the market is et up to make us consume more.

We've become far too used to all the creature comforts and the cheap prices. We produce far too much food wastage; we expect goods to be plentiful and cheap; we want the new Tesla when we should be wanting no Tesla. We want holidays in the sun, when we shouldn't be travelling.

Each year we take our company on a jolly somewhere. Last year it was in Spain. This year I'm going to be a spoilsport, because that's not going to happen again. It's a waste. I may well lose the fight, but it's one I need to have.

It's a two-way street. I think governments will play their part in enforcing change, but it's citizens that have to make the first move - always has been.

Unfortunately, there are still enough detractors, cynics, and narcissistic politicians about to confuse and hoodwink enough people into inaction, and the media will always give 50% of their airtime to ill-informed idiots as they do to experts in the name of balance. The result being - inaction at the precise time when we need action.

 

[Triggaaar]

@Triggaaar

Similar reputation, similar costs

They're not similar reputations. Hondas cost more than Nissans and have a better reputation.

As I mentioned to dsr-burnley, I’ve owned both, and while the Honda successfully gave the initial impression of being a better made product

What gave you that impression - better quality interior, engine, suspension, etc etc? And yes, it would have cost more to own, more expensive cars do.

Some of them come with 30kw batteries, and while the batteries will absolutely need replacing eventually, I’m confident that the batteries will get to somewhere between 10 and 15 years before they absolutely need replacing.

Only 4 on AT from 2015 with 30kw batteries, and only one of them under about £9k. Online guides suggested 10 years, I'm not sure there's anything to suggest they'll last longer yet.

I’d also wager that what you’d pay in fuel and maintenance/service costs with the Honda over 15 years compared to the Leaf would pay for the battery replacement

Do you mean the next 15 years? I think it's a lot to ask them to last another 15 years and the battery could need replacing twice in the next 15 years. Unless you mean over the last 15 years, but then we'd be comparing new prices, not their used prices.

Still, if you really want to fund Big Oil so it can purchase more sports and waste your own money into the bargain, be my guest.

Why do you think people aren't snapping up these Nissans? You claim that they're cheaper than the petrol alternative, and the customers seem to disagree with you. Otherwise we'd all be driving electric.

 

[abc]

Goodwood Festival of Speed last weekend. Essentially a homage to one of the worst contributors to climate change and one of the largest consumers of oil - the car. Furthermore, the traffic jams caused , particularly on Thursday when traffic was stood still in a c 10 mile radius of Chichester, probably doubled the pollution effect.

I’ve no issue with Goodwood (though personally not a petrol head) but I could relate to a JSO demo there. But apparently they were nowhere to be seen because clearly tennis and snooker are a far greater threat to our planet.

 

[Dave the OAP]

And of course goodwood is a very middle class festival which many of the JSO people seem to be!

 

[Stat Brother]

And there in lies the issue. It is US that has to change our habits - the normal person in the street - governments won't solve the problem.

So hands up :

> Who has switched to an EV ? - No, they are not part of the solution (and have no place here esp when they're a perfectly good EV thread on NSC)
> Who has got rid of their car entirely and relies on foot and pedal power ? - I commute Mon to Thurs, don't use the car Fri to Sun.
> Who has stopped renewing their phones when their contract comes to an end ? 5+ year old phone £10 a month to GiffGaff.
> Who has got rid of their gas boiler ? - No.
> Who avoids buying products wrapped in plastic ? - Don't avoid but recycle everything.
> Who walks to the supermarket to do the weekly shop and drags it back .... on foot ? 'Big shop' on way home on Thurs, everything else transported by bike.
> Who has turned the heating down in winter to be 16 degrees ? - That high?
> Who has given up flying anywhere ? - Not for 10+ years.

Virtually nobody. And there is the problem ....... US !

Not too bad, could do better.

 

[chickens]

They're not similar reputations. Hondas cost more than Nissans and have a better reputation.

Honda is by no means a luxury/prestige car brand, in fact they launched Acura as a luxury brand for their upmarket products, precisely because they are A.N.other mass vehicle manufacturer. Albeit I don’t think we see Acura products in the U.K. (we’re not a key market for Honda)

What gave you that impression - better quality interior, engine, suspension, etc etc? And yes, it would have cost more to own, more expensive cars do.

For the Leaf: Better ride quality, better go from a standing start, the interior was a nicer, more spacious, place to spend time and the seats were more comfortable. The stereo was better too.

For the Honda: some of the plastics used felt like they were of a marginally higher grade than the Nissan.

Neither had any real degree of feel through the steering, but the Leaf felt more ‘fun’ to drive. The Honda looked quite sporty, which is perhaps why it was such a disappointment when it turned out to be an utterly damp, soulless, piece of machinery.

Only 4 on AT from 2015 with 30kw batteries, and only one of them under about £9k. Online guides suggested 10 years, I'm not sure there's anything to suggest they'll last longer yet.

Time will tell on the batteries, I agree no way of knowing for certain yet.

Do you mean the next 15 years? I think it's a lot to ask them to last another 15 years and the battery could need replacing twice in the next 15 years. Unless you mean over the last 15 years, but then we'd be comparing new prices, not their used prices.

I agree that another 15 years is unrealistic, but I do believe that we’ll see examples still going on their original batteries at 15 years old.

Why do you think people aren't snapping up these Nissans? You claim that they're cheaper than the petrol alternative, and the customers seem to disagree with you. Otherwise we'd all be driving electric.

Glad you asked, two reasons, one perfectly reasonable, the other less so.

1. Fear of an unknown quantity. Nobody wants to look foolish, and electric is comparatively new. There’s a large chunk of the population that is not going to change to electric until they get to the showroom and everything there is electric. That’s a decade away. These are the people who learn something new when they have to, not before.

When the generation whose mums and dads grew up with electric cars come of age, they’ll complain that combustion engines cars are noisy and smelly, and won’t believe that people tried to claim that they were better, even as half the planet caught fire.

2. A really effective campaign of highly organised lobbying/campaigning by the fossil fuel industry. An industry that has been fully aware of its own consequences for decades, and that instead of spending its money on effective R&D for ecologically sound alternatives, has instead poured its resources into weakening environmental regulation and lobbying governments and international organisations to maintain the status quo.

Between air pollution and climate change, the number of deaths that should effectively be laid at this industry’s door, if apportioned correctly would be staggering.

I accept this will never happen, because the governments that should have taken action decades ago are now complicit in the guilt by allowing their environmental regulations to be weakened. There we are.

 

[A1X]

Goodwood Festival of Speed last weekend. Essentially a homage to one of the worst contributors to climate change and one of the largest consumers of oil - the car. Furthermore, the traffic jams caused , particularly on Thursday when traffic was stood still in a c 10 mile radius of Chichester, probably doubled the pollution effect.

I’ve no issue with Goodwood (though personally not a petrol head) but I could relate to a JSO demo there. But apparently they were nowhere to be seen because clearly tennis and snooker are a far greater threat to our planet.

Or maybe they were but the security was better than minimum wage kids?

 

[Stat Brother]

16 actual relevant pages of this shite here:-

[News] - 2030 and Electric cars.

The air quality where I live in London is appalling this time of year, so I'm fully supportive of any attempt to alleviate it. There is much gnashing of teeth in boroughs further out. Understandably but also selfishly. My view on cars ? Electric or otherwise there are now simply too many of...

www.northstandchat.com

 

[tronnogull]

And there in lies the issue. It is US that has to change our habits - the normal person in the street - governments won't solve the problem.

So hands up :

> Who has switched to an EV ?
> Who has got rid of their car entirely and relies on foot and pedal power ?
> Who has stopped renewing their phones when their contract comes to an end ?
> Who has got rid of their gas boiler ?
> Who avoids buying products wrapped in plastic ?
> Who walks to the supermarket to do the weekly shop and drags it back .... on foot ?
> Who has turned the heating down in winter to be 16 degrees ?
> Who has given up flying anywhere ?

Virtually nobody. And there is the problem ....... US !

Absolutely correct. People often blame oil companies for fossil fuel use. But they are only producing oil because there is demand for it. And it really is demand because society would not currently be able to function without their product.

 

[Stat Brother]

Absolutely correct. People often blame oil companies for fossil fuel use. But they are only producing oil because there is demand for it. And it really is demand because society would not currently be able to function without their product.

Nice little racket they've got there.
Not one that seems conducive to developing and promoting renewable energy.

 

[pb21]

It's a two-way street. I think governments will play their part in enforcing change, but it's citizens that have to make the first move - always has been.

But will a sufficient number of people make the first move, soon enough, unless they believe it is in their best interest, however they define those?

I'm not sure, I think there is too much short-termism and weight applied to what happens tommorow to next year, rather than 10 to 50 years; many will be long gone by then.

I guess a critical mass may form sooner, but I'm not so sure.

 

[Triggaaar]

Honda is by no means a luxury/prestige car brand, in fact they launched Acura as a luxury brand for their upmarket products, precisely because they are A.N.other mass vehicle manufacturer. Albeit I don’t think we see Acura products in the U.K. (we’re not a key market for Honda)

It doesn't matter whether you call it luxury or not, it has a better reputation than Nissan and their cars are more expensive. I'm not sure why you want to argue that point.

For the Leaf: Better ride quality, better go from a standing start, the interior was a nicer, more spacious, place to spend time and the seats were more comfortable. The stereo was better too.

For the Honda: some of the plastics used felt like they were of a marginally higher grade than the Nissan.

Neither had any real degree of feel through the steering, but the Leaf felt more ‘fun’ to drive. The Honda looked quite sporty, which is perhaps why it was such a disappointment when it turned out to be an utterly damp, soulless, piece of machinery.

Reading that it's quite clear you thought the Leaf was better, so it's quite odd that you said the Honda gave the impression of being a better made product.

1. Fear of an unknown quantity. Nobody wants to look foolish, and electric is comparatively new. There’s a large chunk of the population that is not going to change to electric until they get to the showroom and everything there is electric. That’s a decade away. These are the people who learn something new when they have to, not before.

Sure, but they're not that new now. People are happy to spend a lot on a Tesla if they can afford it. If they believe in the quality and reliability of a Leaf they'll buy one, and if they're more affordable than the equivalent petrol car, they'll buy them in huge numbers.

2. A really effective campaign of highly organised lobbying/campaigning by the fossil fuel industry. An industry that has been fully aware of its own consequences for decades, and that instead of spending its money on effective R&D for ecologically sound alternatives, has instead poured its resources into weakening environmental regulation and lobbying governments and international organisations to maintain the status quo.

Yes they'll fight environmental regulations, but if electric cars are better and cheaper, and they also offer environmental benefits, people will buy them.

 

[pastafarian]

Goodwood Festival of Speed last weekend. Essentially a homage to one of the worst contributors to climate change and one of the largest consumers of oil - the car. Furthermore, the traffic jams caused , particularly on Thursday when traffic was stood still in a c 10 mile radius of Chichester, probably doubled the pollution effect.

I’ve no issue with Goodwood (though personally not a petrol head) but I could relate to a JSO demo there. But apparently they were nowhere to be seen because clearly tennis and snooker are a far greater threat to our planet.

Are you saying the JSO road protests cause traffic jams resulting in increased pollution?
How stunning and brave of them.

 

[rogersix]

Are you saying the JSO road protests cause traffic jams resulting in increased pollution?
How stunning and brave of them.

no, it's the cars; the cars cause traffic jams and increase pollution

 

[portslade seagull]

Nice little racket they've got there.
Not one that seems conducive to developing and promoting renewable energy.

I think plenty have developed alternatives but these have been swallowed up by the big oil producers to safeguard their markets. Eventually they will need to relent and embrace themselves to keep the obscene money rolling in

 

[Stat Brother]

I think plenty have developed alternatives but these have been swallowed up by the big oil producers to safeguard their markets. Eventually they will need to relent and embrace themselves to keep the obscene money rolling in

Quite possibly but this is now the Electric Vehicle thread so these opinions no longer have any relevance on here!!!!

 

[chickens]

It doesn't matter whether you call it luxury or not, it has a better reputation than Nissan and their cars are more expensive. I'm not sure why you want to argue that point.

Not convinced, your perception differs from mine. Hondas are nothing special, Nissans are nothing special (each has halo models, but I’m talking about their general mass market products). As I said previously if you’re hung up on comparing Nissan to Honda, compare Renault to Renault.

Reading that it's quite clear you thought the Leaf was better, so it's quite odd that you said the Honda gave the impression of being a better made product.

The Nissan on first encounter felt less solidly built than the Honda, but over time it turned out to be very much the opposite way round.

Sure, but they're not that new now. People are happy to spend a lot on a Tesla if they can afford it. If they believe in the quality and reliability of a Leaf they'll buy one, and if they're more affordable than the equivalent petrol car, they'll buy them in huge numbers.

I feel you underestimate fear of the unknown and its role in decision-making.

Yes they'll fight environmental regulations, but if electric cars are better and cheaper, and they also offer environmental benefits, people will buy them.

Some people already are buying electric cars, others aren’t, the problem is that we’ve already taken the planet past a point where the effects are quite noticeable. Our current situation (I would politely suggest) requires a concerted effort to move faster.