[Football] Jordan Henderson - Saudi move not about the money

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Terrible regime, but how many of us would be hypocrites in attacking him.

Does your company sell goods or services to Saudi ?

The reality of our economy is only gives a flying f#### about a country if it at war with them. If it's at war with some of it's people we generally don't care.

Also where are the lines ? Is it ok to work for/with a Saudi company ? If the company is effectively bankrolled by the regime does that make it different ?

I don't work for a Saudi company or one that supplies services to it. But like many of us, inevitably we sometimes provide products to countries that fall way below our expectations in the West.

If anyone takes the money then fine, take the money. We all have our lines and draw them when we want to draw them.

But don’t take the money then try to play some kind of victim. Just be honest.

 

[Jim in the West]

I personally wouldn't take a penny from a Saudi Company, but also would not berate someone who did. But Henderson is not just improving profits for a company, he is now part of the Saudi PR machine, trying to soften their image without softening their approach.

And Southgate is also now part of that PR machine. My respect for him (as a human being) has taken a considerable nose-dive since he picked Henderson in the squad.

 

[aolstudios]

And Southgate is also now part of that PR machine. My respect for him (as a human being) has taken a considerable nose-dive since he picked Henderson in the squad.

Yep. & his pathetic, fake bemused press conference. Unforgivably dishonest

 

[BBassic]

Terrible regime, but how many of us would be hypocrites in attacking him.

Does your company sell goods or services to Saudi ?

The reality of our economy is only gives a flying f#### about a country if it at war with them. If it's at war with some of it's people we generally don't care.

Also where are the lines ? Is it ok to work for/with a Saudi company ? If the company is effectively bankrolled by the regime does that make it different ?

I don't work for a Saudi company or one that supplies services to it. But like many of us, inevitably we sometimes provide products to countries that fall way below our expectations in the West.

It's the argument the Geordies have used to justify their complete acceptance of the new regime:

"Oh well you watch Disney right? They've got Saudi investment so you're a hypocrite"

Which is an argument. I guess.

To take that argument even further: the computer I'm typing this message on probably contains conflict materials. The production and use of this computer is harmful to our climate. Ditto the mobile phone I use to browse NSC during the day when I should be working. Ditto the servers that host NSC.

None of us, living in the world we live in, are clean. We are all dirty and we are all complicit.

So all we can do is draw our own lines in the sand.

I do my best to shop ethically, I try to avoid horrendous companies, I try to avoid goods and services made in countries with poor human rights records. I'm not going to stop supporting Brighton though because they go to Dubai sometimes. And I'm not going to stop criticising very rich people seeking to become even richer by moving their own line in the sand and then trying to justify it with some hackneyed half-apology.

If people want to call me a hypocrite for this stance then go for it, fill your boots. We all are to a degree.

 

[trueblue]

I’m not denying focus was more on the rainbow armbands at the time of the tournament, it was. I’m stating it’s fanciful to believe it was a useful detraction from other issues…it clearly wasn’t as these were covered for months and years ahead of the tournament. Unless you think a few weeks of rainbow arm bands makes everyone forget everything else?

It helped achieve their aim during the tournament. To make sure that once the football kicked off, the bigger issues were largely forgotten or glossed over. How many more difficult questions would they have faced about deaths on a daily basis over those 6 weeks if the vast majority of the media hadn't become sidetracked into filing stories about rainbow armbands? Instead, the issue of gay rights took over the narrative along, with a certain extent, discussions early on about the absence/cost of alcohol. These were much easier for an Islamic nation to counter and got others on their side. "It's our culture, you must respect it", went down well in lots of other countries.

When I got home from Qatar, virtually everyone I spoke to back here talked about what a great World Cup it had been - which stunned me because, having been out there for the duration, it was by far the least enjoyable of the 6 I've attended. The Middle East/Arab World and lots of Africa loved it though - a tournament they felt reflected their world view for once. FIFA were happy too because it largely ran smoothly and TV viewers lapped it up.

That PR gift of the focus shifting away from continual talk of deaths to a subject a lot of the world doesn't care about really helped the organisers achieve that 'success'. It'd be interesting to know quite how much Qatar society has undergone meaningful change now the World Cup's over or how it's damaged the nation's future. I'd say they got away with it.

 

[Springal]

When I got home from Qatar, virtually everyone I spoke to back here talked about what a great World Cup it had been - which stunned me because, having been out there for the duration, it was by far the least enjoyable of the 6 I've attended. The Middle East/Arab World and lots of Africa loved it though - a tournament they felt reflected their world view for once. FIFA were happy too because it largely ran smoothly and TV viewers lapped it up.

I’m surprised you said that. I would rate it pretty highly because of the concentration of all the fans being in the same city.

I know it was a euros - but compared to Ukraine / Poland which lacked that really as you only saw the fans of the team you were playing.

Downside was got a bit bored of Doha and drinking the same 2 beers the whole time

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yep, I'd bugger off for 10x my salary especially at the end of my career because I have massive double standards. That said, I'd say "I'm going for the cash" rather than "I love the desert" "I'm going here because It's a great standard" and "I can help change things" I've never read an interview with so many contradictions in it. I can't work out if he is trying to convince himself or thinks we are all as thick as he is.

This.

There are just so many colourful analogies. For instance, it reads like a bloke in the 70s who has just f***ed a 14 year old and is trying to persuade himself she consented.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It helped achieve their aim during the tournament. To make sure that once the football kicked off, the bigger issues were largely forgotten or glossed over. How many more difficult questions would they have faced about deaths on a daily basis over those 6 weeks if the vast majority of the media hadn't become sidetracked into filing stories about rainbow armbands? Instead, the issue of gay rights took over the narrative along, with a certain extent, discussions early on about the absence/cost of alcohol. These were much easier for an Islamic nation to counter and got others on their side. "It's our culture, you must respect it", went down well in lots of other countries.

When I got home from Qatar, virtually everyone I spoke to back here talked about what a great World Cup it had been - which stunned me because, having been out there for the duration, it was by far the least enjoyable of the 6 I've attended. The Middle East/Arab World and lots of Africa loved it though - a tournament they felt reflected their world view for once. FIFA were happy too because it largely ran smoothly and TV viewers lapped it up.

That PR gift of the focus shifting away from continual talk of deaths to a subject a lot of the world doesn't care about really helped the organisers achieve that 'success'. It'd be interesting to know quite how much Qatar society has undergone meaningful change now the World Cup's over or how it's damaged the nation's future. I'd say they got away with it.

I just dont see this PR gift you talk about though. Death and corruption were the main themes up to the cup, then it switched to LGBTQ+. Unless you have an absolute sieve of a head, you do not immiediately forget one due to the other. And LGBTQ+ is clearly a subject that is cared about across huge swathes of the world given the coverage it got.

I also agree it was a great world cup..for the footbal it truly was with a dream finall. That said, the thought it was a crap tournmament for other reasons can coexist and does not make me forget all the topics raised about the nation. If anything the light shone on Qatar for the past few years highlighted to the world what a backward nation it is.......some gift? Has the WC not happened many wouldnt even know where the place is. PR people have to justify their existence, maybe some believe what your well-connected friend believes, I am sorry but I do not and I wonder if they truly do either.

 

[trueblue]

I’m surprised you said that. I would rate it pretty highly because of the concentration of all the fans being in the same city.

I know it was a euros - but compared to Ukraine / Poland which lacked that really as you only saw the fans of the team you were playing.

Downside was got a bit bored of Doha and drinking the same 2 beers the whole time

Dire atmosphere did it for me. No real mass mingling of fans or cultures from around the world. Convenient all being in one place but soulless and contrived.

 

[trueblue]

I just dont see this PR gift you talk about though. Death and corruption were the main themes up to the cup, then it switched to LGBTQ+. Unless you have an absolute sieve of a head, you do not immiediately forget one due to the other. And LGBTQ+ is clearly a subject that is cared about across huge swathes of the world given the coverage it got.

I also agree it was a great world cup..for the footbal it truly was with a dream finall. That said, the thought it was a crap tournmament for other reasons can coexist and does not make me forget all the topics raised about the nation. If anything the light shone on Qatar for the past few years highlighted to the world what a backward nation it is.......some gift? Has the WC not happened many wouldnt even know where the place is. PR people have to justify their existence, maybe some believe what your well-connected friend believes, I am sorry but I do not and I wonder if they truly do either.

Whether you see it or not is up to you. I’ll spell it out. I know for a fact that during the tournament they were pleased the focus shifted. Whether they’ve got sieves for a head, whether you think the coverage in the UK and parts of Europe represents how the whole world felt about gay rights, whether you think shining a light on Qatar has made a slightest bit of difference is a separate matter. You might be correct in your opinions on all of those things, who knows?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I just dont see this PR gift you talk about though. Death and corruption were the main themes up to the cup, then it switched to LGBTQ+. Unless you have an absolute sieve of a head, you do not immiediately forget one due to the other. And LGBTQ+ is clearly a subject that is cared about across huge swathes of the world given the coverage it got.

I also agree it was a great world cup..for the footbal it truly was with a dream finall. That said, the thought it was a crap tournmament for other reasons can coexist and does not make me forget all the topics raised about the nation. If anything the light shone on Qatar for the past few years highlighted to the world what a backward nation it is.......some gift? Has the WC not happened many wouldnt even know where the place is. PR people have to justify their existence, maybe some believe what your well-connected friend believes, I am sorry but I do not and I wonder if they truly do either.

It is for these sorts of reasons that I have always thought that sports washing is a bit of a rum sort of exercise. I mean if you are hoping to leave a good impression, why do the washing with a turd added to the final rinse, then dip the lot in a bathtub full of blood before hanging it all out to dry on a barbed wire washing line, where a flock of vultures circle ready to tear the stinking mess into shreds. Seems a bit pointless, all that.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Whether you see it or not is up to you. I’ll spell it out. I know for a fact that during the tournament they were pleased the focus shifted. Whether they’ve got sieves for a head, whether you think the coverage in the UK and parts of Europe represents how the whole world felt about gay rights, whether you think shining a light on Qatar has made a slightest bit of difference is a separate matter. You might be correct in your opinions on all of those things, who knows?

You do not need to spell anything out; I understand you.

My point is not so much questioning whether 'they' were pleased or not, more this pleasure is misguided. It says a lot that a country is happy for it's backward views on homosexuality to be used to overshadow 1000s of unneccesary deaths. This alone speaks volumes about the regime.

 

[trueblue]

It is for these sorts of reasons that I have always thought that sports washing is a bit of a rum sort of exercise. I mean if you are hoping to leave a good impression, why do the washing with a turd added to the final rinse, then dip the lot in a bathtub full of blood before hanging it all out to dry on a barbed wire washing line, where a flock of vultures circle ready to tear the stinking mess into shreds. Seems a bit pointless, all that.

I agree and most right-thinking people would too. Let's see what happens to Qatar, Saudi and the like in future though. I don't think any of that negative publicity will make much difference to them long term because ultimately, money - lots and lots of money - talks. In Qatar's case, they now have the validation of having successfully staged the world's greatest sporting showpiece to trade upon in future and got the Middle East/Africa very much onside and up for more of the same. Similarly, every sports person that goes to Saudi and every event that's staged there makes it easier for the next person, the next corporation, the next sports governing body to say, "well, everyone else is doing it... "

 

[trueblue]

You do not need to spell anything out; I understand you.

My point is not so much questioning whether 'they' were pleased or not, more this pleasure is misguided. It says a lot that a country is happy for it's backward views on homosexuality to be used to overshadow 1000s of unneccesary deaths. This alone speaks volumes about the regime.

We certainly agree about the regime.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Whenever anyone says "it's not about the money", you know that it's about the money.

Henderson is clearly trying to push his narrative that's at odds with the truth, but one that conveniently assuages his conscience.

It's not so much sitting on the fence, but more trying to be on different sides of the fence simultaneously.

Gary Neville was skewered by Ian Hislop on HIGNFY about his decision to take the Qatar money whilst trying to enact 'change'.

Henderson deserves the same. As a footballer, he should know that he can't play for two teams at the same time.

Neville, Lineker etc all showed it was money above morals.

Not sure anyone can take them seriously really, first hint of cash and they are ok with it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

LGBTQ rights apart, it was only 5 years ago, women were allowed to drive in SA, and only 2 years ago guardianship rules (allowing women to leave the house without a male). It is still apartheid for women. Women make up 42% of the population.

My ex-husband worked there for BAe for two years in 80-82.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Terrible regime, but how many of us would be hypocrites in attacking him.

Does your company sell goods or services to Saudi ?

The reality of our economy is only gives a flying f#### about a country if it at war with them. If it's at war with some of it's people we generally don't care.

Also where are the lines ? Is it ok to work for/with a Saudi company ? If the company is effectively bankrolled by the regime does that make it different ?

I don't work for a Saudi company or one that supplies services to it. But like many of us, inevitably we sometimes provide products to countries that fall way below our expectations in the West.

Henderson has choices that many people don’t have. He can still earn millions playing somewhere that’s not Saudi. I think that changes the debate somewhat.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

And Southgate is also now part of that PR machine. My respect for him (as a human being) has taken a considerable nose-dive since he picked Henderson in the squad.

And looked very shifty when explaining it away with all sorts of whataboutery.

 

[BBassic]

Neville, Lineker etc all showed it was money above morals.

Not sure anyone can take them seriously really, first hint of cash and they are ok with it.

Y'know who doesn't get enough shit for this sort of thing? Lionel Messi.

Arguably the most famous footballer on the planet is paid $6m to be a tourism ambassador for Saudi.

 

[Springal]

Dire atmosphere did it for me. No real mass mingling of fans or cultures from around the world. Convenient all being in one place but soulless and contrived.

Really ? I’d say it was one of the best !