Join a Union.

[yxee]

Like any other organisation in life, there are good unions and bad unions. The biggest problem is apathy by the workers. When it comes to voting for the leaders, how many bother to read the profiles of the members standing for election? This is why the activists tend to get voted in, because those who are most active will take the time to send in their postal votes.

Sounds just like our student union at university. They spent so much money lobbying for a school in Palestine there wasn't enough left for the end-of-year ball.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

In the Civil Service people naturally moan about the lack of pay rise, the degradation of conditions and pensions and the massive job cuts.

So, the call goes out "What are the Union doing about this?" Well, the union asks members to vote with a variety of options. Hardly anyone votes but those that do will often vote to strike. So those that didn't vote to strike give lukewarm support or even go in so the strike only hurts the workers themselves. So everyone blames the union and just what are they gonna do about it, eh?

Good luck to any union reps out there.

The reason that happens is that PCS's strikes have achieved absolutely nothing. Serwotka is now seeing membership dwindling and is having to sell off assets to keep the union afloat.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Which union represents a political party. You have got it the wrong way round. What is wrong with a union supporting a party that will represent it's views an/or ideals in government. No different to any other business or individual that may support the Tories because they represent their ideals. You are also aware, I hope, that the individual members of the union decide whether to pay the political levy. You can opt out.

You knew what I meant. Personally, if the unions are to have any credability, they should detach themselves from the links to politics and be standalone organisations - let Labour be Labour without the Union input. Then the Unions can be polittically unbias and properly fight for their members.

Out of interest, has a computer ever ditched a passenger jet successfully on water, maybe the river Hudson for example?

I suspect a computer has never purposely dived the aircraft into a mountain either.

Do the computers decide when to engage the enemy?

Well actually pilots do use computers to help them with that decision as well.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Seems your company will be having trouble working around the rail strike!

We're making arrangements to work around it but it is costing us money.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Never seen the point. In over 30 years of working I have never been in a union and I have never worked anywhere that people have been in one. I can speak for myself, thank you.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The reason that happens is that PCS's strikes have achieved absolutely nothing. Serwotka is now seeing membership dwindling and is having to sell off assets to keep the union afloat.

There was a series of one day strikes about three years ago which did achieve their purpose. Changes were being made to a specific pension scheme illegally. After three one days strikes, the changes were reversed.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

There was a series of one day strikes about three years ago which did achieve their purpose. Changes were being made to a specific pension scheme illegally. After three one days strikes, the changes were reversed.

Not mentioned here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_and_Commercial_Services_Union

Was it Civil Service wide?

There was a dispute in 2004 with other unions which won a small concession on pensions, but which was then changed again a few years ago.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Not mentioned here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_and_Commercial_Services_Union

Was it Civil Service wide?

There was a dispute in 2004 with other unions which won a small concession on pensions, but which was then changed again a few years ago.

No, it was relevant to my own particular branch of the Civil Service within the ministry of Justice.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I am a Trade Union Member and happily so. I am lucky enough to be aware of some of the very good work that can be done by Trade Unions in co-operation with good management in individual workplaces and on the wider stage.

I have also had some good experience of being helped as a trade Union member over one or two issues and my rights in certain situations.

I am also aware of the Common Ground between the Methodist Church and the Trade Unions - at least 5 of the Tolpuddle Martyrs were practising Methodists, three of them active Preachers, and they did what they did inspired by their faith, because it was about justice, fairness and oppression.

I do feel uncomfortable, though, with the Trade Unions seeking to have too much of an influence on who the next leader of the labour party will be - my Union (Unison) seeming to seek to tell its members to affiliate with the Labour party so that they can vote in the leadership race, and then telling them who they should vote for.

If I have got any of the detail wrong, my apologies, but in principle, I do not think that the Trade Unions should be seeking to have undue influence on who is the next leader of the labou party.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

FFS. Take off and landing are NEVER computer operated. For good reason, too.

I used to work in the Aircraft Industry some 20 years ago. There was a joke going round at the time that in future the crew of a plane on the flight deck would be a man and a dog. The man was there to feed the dog, and the dog was there to stop the man touching the controls. I was working for a company - in customer support - which manufactured "fly by wire" equipment.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why do teachers have to start everything with 'I am a teacher'? They do it on phone-ins on the radio, in casual conversation in the pub, at meetings with me at work.

Not that it matters; but at least it provides context.

 

[drew]

You knew what I meant. Personally, if the unions are to have any credability, they should detach themselves from the links to politics and be standalone organisations - let Labour be Labour without the Union input. Then the Unions can be polittically unbias and properly fight for their members.

But what's the point then? A lot of the employment protections are passed in law and to do that you need representation in government that has the power, and the inclination to pass such laws. You don't seem to have a problem with businesses having political affiliations or providing funding to a party that they consider will best serve their purposes. How exactly do you propose a union fight for their members if they have no influence in the institution that passes laws. We've already seen in the past how the conservatives reign in Unions and are to do so again. Exactly when have conservatives made concession that benefit workers at the expense of their employers?

I suspect a computer has never purposely dived the aircraft into a mountain either.

Didn't answer the question though did you?

Well actually pilots do use computers to help them with that decision as well.

But do they make the final decision?

Fair play to you if you are confident that you can employ solicitors on and ad hoc basis to act on your or your wifes behalf. There are plenty of employees in industries that wouldn't be so confident and may not realise exactly what their rights are. I've been in a position where I have issued IT papers against an employer. They were a very profitable company but handed out a 5% pay cut to all staff. Those affected complained and had discussions but one by one they bullied the others into withdrawing. I wasn't intimidated, got as much free advice as I could and submitted the papers myself. The company caved in and gave everyone a new annual bonus to replace the one they took away (it was a guaranteed bonus so was effectively part of your annual salary). I stood up to the bullying but I know many couldn't. I was accused of things I never did and was even given some kind of kangaroo disciplinary hearing. There were many things they did that were illegal and would have counted against them had we gone to tribunal. As a result, whilst I believe I am competent enough to identify right from wrong, I joined UNITE because I would prefer not to got through that intimidation again.

 

[drew]

I am a Trade Union Member and happily so. I am lucky enough to be aware of some of the very good work that can be done by Trade Unions in co-operation with good management in individual workplaces and on the wider stage.

I have also had some good experience of being helped as a trade Union member over one or two issues and my rights in certain situations.

I am also aware of the Common Ground between the Methodist Church and the Trade Unions - at least 5 of the Tolpuddle Martyrs were practising Methodists, three of them active Preachers, and they did what they did inspired by their faith, because it was about justice, fairness and oppression.

I do feel uncomfortable, though, with the Trade Unions seeking to have too much of an influence on who the next leader of the labour party will be - my Union (Unison) seeming to seek to tell its members to affiliate with the Labour party so that they can vote in the leadership race, and then telling them who they should vote for.

If I have got any of the detail wrong, my apologies, but in principle, I do not think that the Trade Unions should be seeking to have undue influence on who is the next leader of the labou party.

The unions can try and influence their members votes but it is still up the member to chose.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I used to work in the Aircraft Industry some 20 years ago. There was a joke going round at the time that in future the crew of a plane on the flight deck would be a man and a dog. The man was there to feed the dog, and the dog was there to stop the man touching the controls. I was working for a company - in customer support - which manufactured "fly by wire" equipment.

It's not so much the actual flying that the issue, more the air traffic controller interactions with unexpected things like final clearance (this is still manual and visual as far as I know), military corridors and military traffic. Never say never but this is a long long way from being fully automated, generations I'd say.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

I'm surprised Germany hasn't had a mention yet on this thread.

Their workers are much better organised and the laws protect them much better than in the UK.

The Tories are to blame for everything. The Mums at my son's school recently sent round an e-mail complaining because our school is considering going into federation with a couple of other local schools that are performing less well. The complaint was that our school may not benefit and why should we care about what is happening elsewhere?

 

[Lower West Stander]

Ah, that old chestnut always resorted to by anti-trade union Tories whenever workers' (lack of) rights are being discussed!

I do remember the 70s - they were 40 years ago.

So how is that relevant to today's era of low wages, zero hours contracts, chronic job insecurity, increasing stress and bullying (by employers) in the work-place to hit targets or sell more, and a pay ratio of 120:1 between the CEOs of Britain's top 100 companies and those workers on the lowest wages - 5 million of the latter have to rely upon top-up welfare benefits because their pay is too low to live on?

All the dice today are loaded in favour of managers, corporations and big business, and for millions of ordinary people, there is little, if any, scope for actually enjoying their jobs, or feeling that they actually have any control over their work; instead, for so many workers,. their jobs are something to be endured or suffered, a source of drudgery, with one eye constantly on the clock waiting for their lunch-break or going home time - along with the constant fear of being made redundant and so not having a job at all (and then told that they are lazy scroungers by politicians)?

It is relevant because in the 1970s Union action was overtly political.

Trade Unions did not need to be led by the likes of Joe Gormley and Hugh Scanlon. These guys were political ideologists who saw the whole of society as a working class struggle.and subsequently brought the country to its knees. Len McCluskey's political meddling, rightly or wrongly rekindles those memories.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

There are a number of unions which seem, from the outside at least, to look after their members very admirably and professionally: National Union of Teachers, British Airline Pilots Association and National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers spring to mind.

Uniso.n and MiP don't and as a result I have opted out.

 

[drew]

It is relevant because in the 1970s Union action was overtly political.

Trade Unions did not need to be led by the likes of Joe Gormley and Hugh Scanlon. These guys were political ideologists who saw the whole of society as a working class struggle.and subsequently brought the country to its knees. Len McCluskey's political meddling, rightly or wrongly rekindles those memories.

You're right but that was 40 years ago!! There has to be a balance otherwise it swings completely the other way where bad employers can get away with anything. If they are allowed to, they drive down their own costs and good employers are forced to compete on the same basis.

 

[surlyseagull]

Had two sick days in five years and didnt get paid but guys I work with did ,have never been paid for my holidays or bank holidays but guys I work with did ,dont get correct lunch breaks but make sure guys I work with do ,I work far more hours than they do and take my work home with me ,they dont have too ,they have had a cost of living rise each year I have not . Is it because they are in a union and I am not ......or because I am self employed and its my company ,sometimes I b***dy wonder !!!

 

[beorhthelm]

It's not so much the actual flying that the issue, more the air traffic controller interactions with unexpected things like final clearance (this is still manual and visual as far as I know), military corridors and military traffic. Never say never but this is a long long way from being fully automated, generations I'd say.

your referring to protocol, not something thats technically challenging and could be done today between ATC and an on board computer.

moving to related but slightly different territory, the tech press last week spoke of the automated Google test cars having accidents. apparently they've had a dozen over a million or so miles, at first reported (by the lay press mostly) as a bit crap. turns out none of them were caused by the automated car, they were all the result of human error. the problem with automation is that is doesn't handle exceptions and the unusual very well. the positive it deals with routine, mundane really, really well. so what you have is a situation where automation is held back because the wetware around it cant be trusted, though we oddly don't have faith in the automation rather than ourselves. in an environment with a lot of external variables, automation is going to have difficulty. keep it in an environment with few variables, it will run very smoothly (cf DLR)

to bring us back to air travel, landing on the Hudson is not something a automated aircraft would "think of". however, in principle, had it a coded routine to deal with a situation with an emergency landing, and say directed to a flat piece of land/river to land on, it would conduct that landing very well - the process changes little. meanwhile, short of having HAL in the cockpit, an automated airplane wouldn't decide to dive into the alps. one day, probably not too far away, when we've accepted automated cars, we'll have all transport automated. the rail could be already if it wasn't for unions.