Jeremy Corbyn.

[Hungry Joe]

I've stated a few times on here, when pushed for a pigeon-hole to slot myself into, that I'd best describe myself as a Libertarian Socialist. That 'philosophy' obviously puts me at odds with some of the more Marxist elements of the Labour left, and there are certain views regarding personal liberty where I'd find more in common with some on the far right. But what has engaged me again in mainstream politics since this leadership campaign started is that there is now a real political dialogue and debate happening for the first time in decades, it's happening here on these very pages. There will always be those on both extremes who will continue to trot out the usual sensationalist nonsense, from the Murdoch press and those who swallow their bullshit to their equivalent on the left (noisy, but far less powerful). But if NSC is a microcosm of society, and I believe like most forums that have members drawn from all sections of society that it is, then it is encouraging to read just how much of the debate is well informed and reasonably balanced.

Others have already alluded to the power of social media. We can have these discussions exactly because there is no agenda, no-one paying us to say what we do, no-one editing or spinning our words. That is real democracy at work and it is powerful because (almost) anyone can access it and take part (almost) anywhere in the world. There is an appetite for change among most people - the result of the last election just showed that without a real alternative people either didn't take part or voted cautiously for what they thought was the safest bet at the time. For many of us, those chickens are coming home to roost pretty quickly, and this has further driven people to want to broaden the debate - I can't remember a time when any members of major Parliamentary political party have supported a candidate just to get people talking, that is incredible. The fact that Corbyn won is to me less important than why he won. Personally, I'd be surprised if he makes it to the next election as leader, he's got one hell of a job on if he is to do so and he'll get a lot of respect and credit if he can pull it off. But even if he doesn't, my hope is that whoever replaces him will mean that at the next election I can vote again on conscience and not just for a party that I disagree with less than the others.

 

[BLOCK F]

Because the gap between rich and poor has widened to the point of being obscene, and the rich and greedy are expecting the poorest and most vulnerable to pick up the tab through austerity cuts for the greed and stupidity of the Masters Of The Universe directly responsible for the financial crash of 2008?

Are you inferring that anybody who voted Tory is rich and greedy, or possibly not quite so hateful, being just rich or greedy?
Just wondered.

 

[BLOCK F]

I despised Thatcher.
But even as a labour supporter, I cannot deny that something had to be done to modernise the country. She had a vision as to how that was to be done.
In my eyes she went too far, but she did achieve what she set out to do. In the main the beneficiaries were the middle classes.

The difference with the current crop of Tories is they are following an ideological agenda, with no real vision of what they want to achieve. They are purely protecting the interests of the wealthy by ensuring all costs are paid by the poor and vulnerable.

The middle classes are not benefitting from austerity, nor will they IMHO.
They are being conned by a party they think are on their side.

Labour need to offer a real alternative to what is in place. Corbyn is the only candidate offering that. He may be unelectable at the moment. But who knows what the next 4 years will bring.

Who do you consider to be 'the wealthy'?
Do you really believe that the poor and vulnerable are paying 'all costs', as you put it?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Are you inferring that anybody who voted Tory is rich and greedy, or possibly not quite so hateful, being just rich or greedy?
Just wondered.

Nope, there's nothing in my post that infers that at all

 

[glasfryn]

Who do you consider to be 'the wealthy'?
Do you really believe that the poor and vulnerable are paying 'all costs', as you put it?

I consider
amazon
starbucks
vodaphone ect,ect
all rich companies who rick the British public by not paying their full taxes gideon says he will do something about it but up to now has not .............................these are companies the government should be soaking

 

[BLOCK F]

I consider
amazon
starbucks
vodaphone ect,ect
all rich companies who rick the British public by not paying their full taxes gideon says he will do something about it but up to now has not .............................these are companies the government should be soaking

Ah, not individuals then? Not even wicked greedy people, like me, who voted Tory?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Ah, not individuals then? Not even wicked greedy people, like me, who voted Tory?

Don't beat yourself up about it, nobody's blaming you personally, though you do seem intent on labelling yourself as wicked and greedy. Weirdo

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Who do you consider to be 'the wealthy'?
Do you really believe that the poor and vulnerable are paying 'all costs', as you put it?

Maybe not all costs, as some of the policies have a negative affect on most of us, including the middle classes..
I do believe that the majority of economic policies are aimed at "recovering" the deficit by taking funding from services, which support the more vulnerable members of society.

IMO, this government are more interested in the benefits to the super rich, rather than the thatcherite "upwardly mobile" generation.

 

[BLOCK F]

Don't beat yourself up about it, nobody's blaming you personally, though you do seem intent on labelling yourself as wicked and greedy. Weirdo

Tom, I am no weirdo, I can assure you.
However, many fellow posters on this board, of a more left wing persuasion, do seem to think that Tory voters are 'a pretty horrible lot' , so forgive me my unintended intent.
Some of the nicest people I know are lefties, but I must admit they tend not to be of the more extreme variety.

 

[BLOCK F]

Maybe not all costs, as some of the policies have a negative affect on most of us, including the middle classes..
I do believe that the majority of economic policies are aimed at "recovering" the deficit by taking funding from services, which support the more vulnerable members of society.

IMO, this government are more interested in the benefits to the super rich, rather than the thatcherite "upwardly mobile" generation.

Not sure about your last para UUH; there are so few super rich individuals compared to the rest of the population that they can't win elections, but the people in the 'swinging middle' can.
Anyway, no bad thing having a few super riches around the place, they generally spend a few bob, employ people and even keep the odd footy club afloat!

 

[Hungry Joe]

Tom, I am no weirdo, I can assure you.
However, many fellow posters on this board, of a more left wing persuasion, do seem to think that Tory voters are 'a pretty horrible lot' , so forgive me my unintended intent.
Some of the nicest people I know are lefties, but I must admit they tend not to be of the more extreme variety.

I'm not sure that's true or accurate. I think a lot of us 'lefties' think the present government are a pretty horrible lot, but not necessarily the majority of those who voted them in.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Not sure about your last para UUH; there are so few super rich individuals compared to the rest of the population that they can't win elections, but the people in the 'swinging middle' can.
Anyway, no bad thing having a few super riches around the place, they generally spend a few bob, employ people and even keep the odd footy club afloat!

And this is where I think this government might come unstuck. The swinging middle are always the ones that make the difference in a general election.
This government aren't building anything, just making sure it is not the super rich picking up the bill for the last crisis.

If a global financial crisis comes along and say house prices take a sudden hit, or pension pots take a clobbering.
The swinging voters may start to realise that 10 years of austerity hasn't made any difference to them, or provided any security for the future.

 

[beorhthelm]

...but would he still be saying that, knowing what we do today? Did he really mean that quote to be applicable indefinitely?

the actual quote is: "democ*racy is the worst form of Gov*ern*ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

though it is equally applicable to economic systems. there is an inherent link between the two, true democracy and capitalism depend upon each other, as without either they are constrained (though this is not an absolute requirement - cf China). the trouble is many on the left don't understand capitialism, chosing to focus on some of the unintended consequences rather than the core purpose and major benefits. back to the quote, we have tried it other ways and they've fallen by the wayside, even the largest communist country has embraced a capitialist economy as a means to their political ends.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If a global financial crisis comes along and say house prices take a sudden hit, or pension pots take a clobbering.
The swinging voters may start to realise that 10 years of austerity hasn't made any difference to them, or provided any security for the future.

This, completely. It'll be something that comes out of a clear blue sky. Like 9/11. Or 2008. Or Grexit. Or China. Or the current migration crisis that might conceivably kill off the EU before we even get a chance to vote ourselves out of it. Or another rubbish war in another unlikely place. There's always some crisis comes along to fill the vacuum. And all the austerity measures in the world won't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

His proposals on tax will backfire and only encourage a flight of capital or the use of cunning means to pay even less tax.

I think most people are in favour of a progressive tax system, just as they are in relation to migration, but it is a question of degree. McDonnell's proposals go too far IMO.

Given the track record of government in spending money, in terms of profligacy and subject areas, I would be very reluctant to be taxed at 60% on a significant proportion of my income, so would probably just cut back on the amount of work I do.

I was never told that a vote for Corbyn meant less opportunities to ogle El Presidente on the television. If I'd known that I'd have voted for a more El P minded Andy Burnham.

 

[El Presidente]

I was never told that a vote for Corbyn meant less opportunities to ogle El Presidente on the television. If I'd known that I'd have voted for a more El P minded Andy Burnham.

The GOOD news is that I will be on Five Live tomorrow morning talking the normal nonsense.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Most of the left is pushing for MORE democracy, MORE political involvement and power by regular people, LESS authoritarian policies, LESS government power/surveillance, than we currently have. So in other words, the exact opposite to Soviet Russia, Communist China, East Germany and so on.

Instead we want more genuine socialism - by that we mean social ownership and/or social control of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy... and this can and will be achieved with democracy, just like it always has in the West... and when it does, it is usually a great success, such as the NHS, the welfare state, free education, public services, the BBC, and hopefully our transport and utilities once again.

These are very important points, and ones often deliberately overlooked by those who would have anyone who expresses reservations about Free Market Capitalism labelled as 'Commies' or the like. The above were born and flourished under a broadly Keynsian economic system - cooperation between the public and private sectors, where governments still have the remit to take control of the economy, especially during recessions, to ensure a more even distribution of wealth and opportunity than can exist under the free market, motivated purely by corporate profiteering.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

The GOOD news is that I will be on Five Live tomorrow morning talking the normal nonsense.

Hurrah!!!!! I'm going to start recording these appearances in case the Comnunist Corbyn Cadre cut supplies after 2020.

 

[El Presidente]

Hurrah!!!!! I'm going to start recording these appearances in case the Comnunist Corbyn Cadre cut supplies after 2020.

I always hope they are going to ask me questions on my specialist subject, but sadly it will be about sport finance instead

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The GOOD news is that I will be on Five Live tomorrow morning talking the normal nonsense.

David: Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs, yeah, yeah. (Everyone gasps) Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you want to... yeah... stay. I know, I know, gutting, gutting. You didn't see me. On a more positive note, the good news is I've been promoted, so... every cloud... (everyone stares; long pause) You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

Malcolm: There's no good news, David. It's bad news and irrelevant news.

David: Yeah, that's not a phrase though, is it? I couldn't come out and go "Oh, I've got bad news and irrelevant news."

Malcolm: You could have told us about Neil and kept your promotion to yourself.

David: Should've told you the good news first, got you happy...

Malcolm: There is no good news, David.

David: Hmm, I think promotion is generally considered good news.