Jeremy Corbyn.

[Questions]

The Labour Party suffers from the same mind set that I came across in many companies back in the days when I ran Profit Improvement Seminars.

We've got a great product that we believe in, how can we persuade people to buy it?

Wrong question.

The right question is, what product do our customers want?

Followed by How can we provide this?

We had a general Election where the majority - albeit a small majority - voted to the right of the Labour party.

How do the Labour Party react to this? Logic says they need to move a bit to the right from where they were to be closer to what the electorate has said they want.

Instead some people want them to move more to the left - further away from what the majority of the elctorate said they wanted.

There's a technical term for this. It's called moving the target closer to the arrow.

It also leads to unelectability.

Politics is NOT about forcing your ideals onto others. That's dictatorship

Actually, politics can be, and often is, just like this. Just not winning politics.

To win, to get power so you can change the world, you have to give people what they want, not what you think they should have.

So say what you think people want to hear rather than what you actually believe in.
"Forcing your view on others is dictatorship"
No, not when we have the ballot box. I suspect Labour will plump for Burnham. It's safer and they'll get closer with him but that's not how my politics work. I would prefer to vote for someone's heartfelt policies that I actually agree with..............the dinosaur that I am. I like Corbyn.

 

[alfredmizen]

I can't see this in my life time.

why do you think it wont happen ?

 

[Hampster Gull]

I can't see this in my life time.

That may be true, i didnt put a timeline on it, but i beleive it will happen, perhaps with an independent NI first. I remember meeting some germans in the late eighties who didnt think unification of germany would happen in their lifetime

 

[alfredmizen]

So say what you think people want to hear rather than what you actually believe in.
"Forcing your view on others is dictatorship"
No, not when we have the ballot box. I suspect Labour will plump for Burnham. It's safer and they'll get closer with him but that's not how my politics work. I would prefer to vote for someone's heartfelt policies that I actually agree with..............the dinosaur that I am. I like Corbyn.

even given that he held a minutes silence for the provos killed at loughall, and the way he cosies up to scum like mcguinness and adams even now, when there is no need to ?

 

[alfredmizen]

That may be true, i didnt put a timeline on it, but i beleive it will happen, perhaps with an independent NI first. I remember meeting some germans in the late eighties who didnt think unification of germany would happen in their lifetime

why DO you think it will happen ?

 

[Seasidesage]

This isnt austerity, just look towards greece, ireland etc. media hype. "New" labour werent tory light, they were left of centre in their policies and eventually pushed the country into deep financial difficulties as labour parties do. But i am with you, i think the country should be given the choice btw a centre right and a hard left party

More than anything I would like to see some genuine choice between parties and even more importantly I'd like to see less of the old school tie running the country but I won't see that in my lifetime.

 

[Hampster Gull]

why DO you think it will happen ?

We are seeing the long term erosion of british (english) power, from the empire to where we are now and this is another step. As i said, unlikely to be direct to ireland but indepenence first. Why has the empire been lost? due to lack of financial clout to pay for it. And in a wider federal europe englands support is not needed. Why ireland without british interference? Natural course of things

 

[spring hall convert]

The fact that people (even within the Labour Party) refer to Corbyn as 'hard left' shows you how far the Overton Window has shifted in the last 30 years.

I don't think it's a problem that people think he's a communist, it's a good thing to be underestimated.

 

[Hampster Gull]

More than anything I would like to see some genuine choice between parties and even more importantly I'd like to see less of the old school tie running the country but I won't see that in my lifetime.

Thatcher wasnt old school tie, neither major, to name a couple

 

[Hampster Gull]

The fact that people (even within the Labour Party) refer to Corbyn as 'hard left' shows you how far the Overton Window has shifted in the last 30 years.

I don't think it's a problem that people think he's a communist, it's a good thing to be underestimated.

A communist! Lol. He is far from that. But he doesnt have policies that will have enough support To form a government so it will make no difference

 

[Questions]

I haven't given much thought to any of the candidates to be honest. I'm underwhelmed by all of them and still reeling from the disappointment of the last election. I've taken on board what you have written though. I'll also read further and see if I can understand Corbyn's reasons and then decide. I genuinely don't know enough about this particular issue to make an opinion at the moment. I'll let you know next week.

Corbyn and the IRA I know little about but I'll rectify that . I do remember the Tory press attacking Ken Livingstone for his stance to 'talks' with the Republican cause. All those years ago but move that on a few years ...........Surely things are better now ? Maybe there are differences between the two instances with Corbyn and Livingstone though, I don't know.

 

[cunning fergus]

Responding to a comment about the IRA and second sentence you're on about the EU. Can you mention nazis so we're done for today please.

Well, if you insist.

As you know the IRA actively collaborated with the Germans in WW2, and post war Ireland provided many Nazi war criminals with asylum..........a shameful episode in the history of Irish Republicanism and the modern Irish state.

It's a shame that Corbyn has historically allied himself with individuals and an organisation that celebrated the likes of Nazi activist Sean Russell, and holds an annual memorial at his statue in Dublin whilst actively treating WW2 VC hero (and Catholic) James Magennis as a traitor. To be fair the Unionist Community behaved badly to but that's beside the point.

How does that work for you?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

why do you think it wont happen ?

I can't see a united Ireland over the next 40 years or so because I don't see much support for it, and current generations are experiencing (relative) peace and a lot of sacrifices and goodwill has gone into this. Why would anyone want to rock the boat again? I appreciate there are some factions still promoting the aims of independence and unification but I just think they're a minority and will get smaller over time. I'm no expert though.

 

[Questions]

even given that he held a minutes silence for the provos killed at loughall, and the way he cosies up to scum like mcguinness and adams even now, when there is no need to ?

So far I've got him admitting to discussing with Republicans topics such as conditions in Northern Irish prisons and the IRA ceasefire. Mind you that's just Wiki so off I go again to find out more about this traitor. I agreed with his stance of a united Ireland back then though but don't take that as a view I condoned what happened to your fellow soldiers. This is about politics and I know you will tie the people he spoke with to those atrocities you spoke of but that is not to say he condoned it either.

 

[South Stand Rebel]

"centrist??"

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

"centrist??"

3 thumbs down on consecutive comments of mine - how about you challenge my opinions instead?

The response I got from talking to hundreds of people every day was Miliband being too left wing - the electorate voted more to the right than to the left with 15,215,675 votes for the Conservatives and UKIP against 14,375,215 for Labour, the SNP, the Greens and (the not very left wing) Liberal Democrats that's 840,460 more!!!!

Instead of giving me a thumbs down (which are pointless really) - answer this question which I said originally:

"Would you rather have a Blairite Labour party in Government with 400 seats, or a Corbyn led party which has 200 and no power? Refereed to by Tristram Hunt as a 'pressure group' (it might have noble causes, but it has no influence)"

(I fully expect another thumbs down )

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I can't see a united Ireland over the next 40 years or so because I don't see much support for it, and current generations are experiencing (relative) peace and a lot of sacrifices and goodwill has gone into this. Why would anyone want to rock the boat again? I appreciate there are some factions still promoting the aims of independence and unification but I just think they're a minority and will get smaller over time. I'm no expert though.

This doesn't happen often so with pleasure I say:

This.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I would challenge that hypothesis as there was only one real left party at the election, the greens. Who get seen by many as having no chance so what is the point of voting.
You need to factor in all the people who would vote for a left party if there was actually one. These people may not even have voted.

Let's say that in 2020 Corbyn is leader, he will get a lot Green support, (let's say over 50%) - that's just over 500,000 votes. However to win next time Labour need to take votes and more importantly seats off the Conservatives - and they need to take around 2 million of them. My response would be could Corbyn really persuade voters from the Tories to come across? As without it, he would get nowhere near power, they need to take 100 seats - most from the Conservatives and need a swing of over 9.5%.
Labour certainly stood on their most 'left' platform since 1992, also turnout was at its highest since 1997, its impossible to predict which way nonvoters would vote.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The Daily Mail is shitting itself over Corbyn - its propaganda campaign is now in full swing. Three HILARIOUS (sic) articles from the Daily Mail in the last 24 hours:

Hard-Left Militant Tendency activists 'using loophole to infiltrate Labour to help Jeremy Corbyn with leadership election'

So is he a Marxist? Jeremy Corbyn dodges the question but says 'I haven't really read as much of Marx as we should have done'

Jeremy Corbyn as leader and Tom Watson as his deputy would make Labour the Tom and Jerry party

This one was from few days back, but pretty much epitomises The Daily Mail's puerility

'Anyone else think Corbyn is sexy?' Unlikely Labour leadership frontrunner Jeremy Corbyn now also has the mothers' vote for his 'Dumbledore sea dog' look

Please do, just please do. A guaranteed Tory victory in 5 years........please do, please?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

As a declared more right than left person I'm actually quite intrigued by Corbyn. Firstly he appears to be a a conviction politician - something we've been sadly missing for many a year. He's not the bland identikit twats like Balls, Milliband, Cameron and Osbourne. I also think it would be a good thing for the country to have the two main parties actually being different - 'New Labour' was nothing more than 'Red Tory'.

I also like his support for Palestinians - something sadly lacking in any other current mainstream politician. Maybe he'd like to arrange for the dispensing of the three rather vile Israelis in this film - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b063m29d/panorama-the-train-that-divides-jerusalem - namely the religious bint, the racist property developer and the utter scum of a mayor.

I also rather like he's upsetting the war criminal Blair.

Then my opinion changes with his support of the IRA and having tea with a couple of murderers who should actually be in prison rather than walking through the doors of Westminster.

A confusing fellow and one who I should naturally be opposed to but somehow I have a begrudging respect for and hope he wins ( and not because he's likely to make Labour unelectable ).